Jack & Jill Politics

Baratunde!! Woo-HOOO!!

Applause , applause.

You kept the conversation focused and on track. You moved it to a higher level and did not get distracted with the defensive tactic of racism 'I am not racist, I am not backing down, you have the problem not me'...those responses typically cause all discussion to deteriorate into each person's perspective corner. You did not allow that. You kept focused and elevated the dialogue even using the instigating cartoon as the catalyst for what can BECOME honest dialogue.

You are doing us proud, young man. And I was inDEED impressed with your Improvement by citing the AUTHOR of the research. Whenever you do that you raise the bar as to the depth of your knowledge and expertise...Keep up the good work, your sound bites reflect a very agile and cogent intellect!!


Gooing forward what that means is when you read articles make note mentally of the author...often times it is far easier to remember what was read than the author.Also keep a litttle file and typically you can visualize the paper with the authors name when you cite their work. Just a tip I found works professionally.

BTW, I also very much enjoy your calm demeanor and the well-modulated tone of your voice which expresses discussion vs. confrontation by the way you articulate the view. In short, you are media ready for this...natural ability that makes listeners receptive to you.

O happy Day...

MSNBC is looking for a new Talking Head Show. Baratunde would be perfect, and the perfect counter to the D.L. Hugley minstrel show on CNN. His calm demeanor, well-modulated tone of voice (no dissing and datting) and his knowledge of the subject matter was on point. I think a large majority of the problem is the lack of diversity in the media and it's controll by white men.

I'm so down with Baratunde representing on Cable network.

Spike Lee wants boycott of New York Post over chimpanzee cartoon

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/02/20/...

Filmmaker Spike Lee led the call for celebrities to join a boycott of the New York Post Friday during a raucous protest of a racially charged cartoon.

Joined by his 11-year-old son, Lee told a crowd of about 300 people that he has bought the tabloid in the past - but no more.

And he suggested athletes and entertainers shun the paper's writers because of Wednesday's cartoon, which compared President Obama with a crazed chimp by some interpretations.

"This is not the end," Lee told the demonstrators, who marched in front of the Post's offices near Rockefeller Center shouting, "Shut it down."

"It's not just black folks. It's an insult to everybody."

He was joined by the Rev. Al Sharpton, who called the paper "a racist rag sheet" and TV judge Greg Mathis, who said executives from parent company News Corp. must be held accountable.

The protest leaders are calling on advertisers to boycott the Post and are vowing to take their money out of banks that buy space in the paper.

The single-panel cartoon by Sean Delonas showed the bloody body of the chimp responsible for Monday's attack on a woman in Connecticut, with two cops.

"They'll have to find someone else to write the next stimulus bill," one of the cops says.

The paper printed a half-hearted "apology" for offending anyone with the cartoon Friday - but protesters said the note, with its dig at Sharpton, was insincere.

"They should apologize on the front page," said Vivienne McLean, 62, of Manhattan. "I'm outraged that the stereotypes I encountered as a child still exist today."

Manhattan youth worker Salaam Ismail, 50, said the cartoon brought back painful childhood memories.

"I was called a monkey in elementary school by a group of white kids," he said. "I was a victim of racism \[then\] and I am again today."

Erin Bradley, 32, a copywriter from the East Village, said the Post was her "guilty pleasure" until this week.

"I'm never buying it again," she said. "I'm a Daily News customer now."

it was my guilty pleasure as well the business section is better than the Daily News which spends more time on entertainment and sports (cant believe I just wrote that)

Justice58: Don't let Mr. Lee hafta make a "MOVIE" on this stuff.

It won't B pretty! :>)

I never thought about that, GreenLady. You might be right .

Justice58: U neva know!! :>) :>)

You all have held it down in this thread. :)

Baratunde: -Er -ummmm - - - What WAS our ASSIGNMENT - - AGAIN? :>) :>)

Baratunde, great again! At least Shuster was giving you something to work with!

Noelani, agree. Props to David Shuster for his thoughtful faclitation of the discussion.

Yes, Schuster...is new millenium focused AND a fellow alumni...GoBLUE!!

Baratunde: GREAT POINT! Taking the conversation to the WORD - - COURAGEOUS!!

We are having this conversation about psychological effects, about racism about meaningful satire!!!

GREAT JOB! BARATUNDE!! Thank you for REPRESENTIN'!!!

Baratunde: Good opening!! "Just looking at us 3- - -the "conversation has started!"

REPRESENT - - JACK!!! Yaaaaa! :>)

Yep, that was an EXCELLENT u-turn from Czenk

whiterosebuddy: Betcha Baratude is a "PLAYA - OF -CHESS" in his own right! :>) :>)

He CAME ta make HIS POINTS!! 4 - get the "opponent!" :>) :>)

HE KNOWS!! :>) :>)

C U L8R! :>)

OT: Keyes: Stop Obama or U.S. 'will cease to exist'

How can this not be deemed a threat against the President. If not a direct dress, then this is definitely inciting violence against the President.

Here is the video: http://new.khastv.com/modules/news/article.php?...

Exactly. Talk like this will get someone hurt. Alan Keyes need a visit from the Secret Service. What a f-ing coward.....being used by right wing sons of bitches who don't give a rats ass about his sorry black behind.

Alan Keyes has just signed on for a secret service security watch and AG Holder and the Justice Department .

Alan Keyes is PSYCHOTIC.

he would be on Fox the next day saying that POTUS was trying to stop/kill debate of his policies..he needs to be ignored by the MSM

Alan Keyes' speech is dangerous. The Secret Service need to shut him down before some crazies take it upon themselves to harm the President. WTF is he trying to pull?

In my wildest imaginations, I never expected this kind of hate toward the first African American President to come from a black man. We live and learn. But this mofo need to be watched!

Justice58: from a black man.

SADLY, he doesn't THINK or LIVE like a BLACK MAN! Soooo, we really don't hafta claim him. :>)

I'm wonderin' IFFF he is genetically/congenitally CERTIFIABLE- - -Orrrr did somethin' happen to him as he was growin' up? Hmmm.

Alan Keyes
From Wikipedia,

Hmmmmmm.

jack I want to see one of your shows in NYC, how do i find out when they are?

Baratunde, good deal!

1. The NYP did not issue a sincere apology.

2. So glad you got togive cred to Dr. Golf and Proffesor Phillips

3. like how you made the important point about THE REAL HARMFUL the cartoon causes and not so much focus on the sensitivity issue.

4. The satire as completely lost, and it was clear to folks who were offended

5. The cartoon gives us opportunity for dialouge about race that we need to have

6. It brought police brutality to the fore.

Baratunde, you do us proud. Thank you for serving it up.

I think you both represented yourselves well and you both made some excellent points.

Sure, you disagreed in this instance on the best way to approach the discussion of race, but it was clear to me that you were ultimately on the same page in a broader sense.

Cenk Unger doesn't get it, which is why he doesn't need his own MSNBC TeeVee Show. Bartatunde did a good job, which is why he should be the new liberal host on MSNBC.

I liked Cenk. My personal experience is that he was dead right.

Folks get defensive and shut down all communication when they think they are being called racist. It is such an insult to whites, doesn't mean it is false, just that they find it so upsetting that they DEFEND themselves rather than listen.

Cenk's remarks were dead on target. Doesn't mean I think that approach is right but his point is well taken. You cannot approach whites in that manner IF you want open dialogue, you will only get pushback and they will just become entrenched in their position.

No different than what we have seen with Holder's speech and that response. All white folks want to focus on is the word COWARD. They are stuck on that and will fight that idea of cowardice and NEVER address the race issue. One of the differences in how whites communicate is that black folks speak straight up with candor that uses the negative descriptor word rather than flipping a positive descriptor word by adding not or saying they have less of that or fail to have it. For instance here is the difference:

We say...coward...they say "not" brave

We say..deceit...they say "lack of "full disclosure

We say..ugly...they say" not "pretty

We say..bad...they say "not" good

We say awful..they say" it could have been" better

We say don't do that...they say, I would not encourage that

We say I'm tired of you doing that....they say... I am disappointed in you

See what I mean, they simply use the positive descriptor and say something was missing from it. A whole other way of speaking.


It is a different verbal dynamic. Black cultural communication is stripped of niceties because we did not have the luxury of being nice, being nice could get us killed so we speak in declarative sentences to our children and about others in a way that is candidly raw to the mainstream culture.

Just my observation based on the work environment, because I had to grapple with why blacks were being perceived as negative simply because they said, at least what I heard, the same thing as the white worker which was acceptable. So, I focused on what could the difference be between...'this doesn't make sense' feedback from the black employee to 'can you give an example of what you mean here' by another white employee. Or hearing the black co-worker say... this means we don't get paid' to the white worker saying ' does this limit out compensation'

It was a real eyeopener to learn...all you need to do is say...well, they are NOT the prettiest person...instead of she sure is ugly. And my favorite technique that worked wonders is I quit calling folks racist, I called them culturally biased and if they were blatantly wilfully ignorant like Pat Buchanan, bigots. Those 2 terms get completely different responses than racist.

you get a completely different response.....and to me,..they are saying the same damn thing.

whiterosebuddy, all your points and examples are well taken.

For me, "he points well taken" is what is so exhausting and frustrating.

Again, we have to concede to white speak, to what makes them comfortable, to how they interpret, to engage them. I know how to interact with white folk in the work place, in social settings and in public.

This is about that racist cartoon and racist behavior. I don't have time to play nice and say, "Excuse me, you mean you don't lke me because I'm BLACK?
when they just straight up called me a nigger, ape, chimp, boy, girlie..........

Nope, I don't roll like that.

I hear you...I agree with you.
I just know if we want dialogue...it will require a different approach..that's all I'm really saying.

I read the rest of the thread and it plays out just like Cenk, said...everyone is defending their turf. White and Black...it cuts both ways. And Miranda's domestic violence scenarios, were a hoot ...so on point as well.

Not saying it is wrong..just an observation..that we have to get beyond the defensiveness to make progress.

That does not mean all is forgiven nor that we should concede anything...but we can shift the terms of the conversation.

Got it, whiterosebuddy.

The only shift in the terms of the converation that I will engage in is:

RACISM IS HURTFUL & HARMFUL, BODY MIND AND SPIRIT.

Yes it is hurtful and I too feel the pain.

You know why white folks get all defensive and shut down when confronted with racist behavior? Because they are guilty. There's an old saying where I come from, if you throw a rock at a pen full of pigs, the one that hollers is the one that was hit.
White folks don't want to talk about race and racism because they are afraid of what they might discover about themselves. They think as long as we don't talk about it, it will go away. Which I believe is the point Eric Holder was making.

Why do white folks get to decide what's racist/racism and what's not?

O they do NOT get to decide. But since they control the media their perspective dominates.

I wouldn't call it so much guilty as a fear of losing entitlement and privilege based on race...that is the core issue. They don't want to compete on a leveling playing field.

They have seen too many times what happens, look at sports and entertainment..the most visible images of when there is often times a playing field that even unlevel means we rise to the top as superstars.

Now, if you know we become superstars when the refs are biased and the field is unlevel, wtf do you beleive many whites believe will happen if the game changes and is FAIR?

That is what we see in them...cold hard FEAR.

Agree. Cenk couldn't call a kettle black. He was focusing on the sensitivity in calling a racist a racist. Ah, no, these folks aren't interested in having a serious dialouge. Fuck that. You a racist, your'e ass is getting blasted as a racist.

Baratunde spoke of the real harm racism causes. Big difference.

I was somewhat disappointed in Cenk's response but midway I realized that he is probably auditioning for a job. I never knew that the Young Turks were afraid to challenge mainstream America and I guess I have misunderstood many of their "broadcasts." If you can't step up when you're on a big stage then just sit down.

Is that guy Turkish...the way he expressed him self was very good. People will listen to him. He comes across as moderate and well meaning.

He's not a moderate, he is supposedly an avowed progressive. He has videos on youtube under Young Turks and his behavior on this particular show was atypical.

As my grandpa used to say,

"Girl, you need to pee or get off the pot."

Good job, Baratunde.

I have to say though, I disagree with Cenk. If something is racist - call it racist! If people are not willing to listen if something that is racist is called racist - they are just using that as an excuse. Marginalizing or ignoring the messenger won't make it any less offensive and it won't make it less racist. You can't will history - and it's resulting implications - to go away. There is a history in the this country of using images of monkeys/apes to purposely degrade Black people. Anyone who wants to pretend that subtext isn't there is not to be taken seriously as far as I'm concerned.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Now I know why I was angry after watching the interview of Alexandra Pelosi with Rachel Maddows regarding her new documentary, "Right America: Feeling Wronged". She made comments that amounted to making excuses for why these racist azz people felt the way they did and chastised the "left" for not understanding why the people interviewed on the doc felt that way. To me it was another example of white liberals being worse than any self-professed racist. I wondered what the reaction would have been if she had said the exact same things to a black journalist as opposed to Rachel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhxZ3l7vKUY

Exactly.

It reminds of the people who criticized Mike Huckabee when he said that he understood why black people of a certain age may harbor bitterness due to racism they dealt with - from petty to deadly - throughout their lives.

What does Alexandra Pelosi have to say to their black counterparts? The black people they blocked out of jobs, neighborhoods and schools for decades?

Racists should feel "chastised" for their racism. I'm not concerned about how they "feel" about it. Please!

Yeah...because Rev. Wright should "get over it"....but the white guy in Mississippi needs "time".....they can go to hell with that shit.

Shame Klannity and Pabulum Buckhlanan continues to harp on Rev Wright racist diatribe, and they are the TWO BIGGEST RACIST IN THE MSM!

They can go directly to hell with that shit.

and they are the TWO BIGGEST RACIST IN THE MSM!




But yet MSNBC gives Pat Buchanan a platform every f-ing day....knowing he's a racist a-hole!

That is Correct. The MSM continues to foster and condone racism.

That hasn't changed since the beginning of th media.

EXACTLY!!!!

Word, Anovelista.

It's the same as calling me a nigger to my face, and an hour later come back literally crying to me because you called me a nigger and expecting me to tell you it'll be alright that you called me a nigger, don't cry."

Major, Fucking <<<<EYE ROLL>>>>

Preach Spirit!

Like I said below, all of a sudden "battered women's syndrome" is something we need to embrace.....I'm being oppressed, and telling my oppressor "its not your fault, its mine..here, let me help you stop oppressing me".....aint that some shit?

Miranda: SPEAK!!

I'm tryin' ta twist this around in my mind:

1. You INTENTIONALLY PLAN to HURT ME!
Ohh! Let's say- - - U draw a cartoon which is "un-clear" as 2 it's meaning. BUT - - it has a DARK/BLACK CHIMP!

2. YOU don't CARE IFFF U do!!
'cause ya drew it and published it!!

3. Then I REACT 2 it.
Let's saaaaay - - I CALL U a RACIST!!

4. NOW YOU'VE gone BRAIN DEAD!!
'cause U don't quite understand why I would REMOTELY think that the DARK/BLACK CHIMP just - might - represent the FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT ! You're SHOCKED - - EVEN!!

[It has ONLY been 24 hours since U went 2 press. BUT - - - YOU'RE "BRAIN DEAD!" Hmmmmm.]

5. NOW U offer a "FAUX - POLOGY" and HOPE that I could CHANGE my mind.

BUT - - - U haven't change yours. 'cause U R STILL a RACIST. Annnnnnd, a few other people think so 2.
Annnnnd, this "FAUX - POLOGY was ONLY offered to "SOME!"
Like a "STRATIFIED FAUX - POLOGY!"

Annnnnd, YOUR QUESTION?

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG??

MY ANSWER - - - -HECK NO!!!

Say it, GreenLady

Justice58: ***shakin' my head*** :>) :>)

'cause I don't GET IT!! :>) :>)

"Stratified faux apology"

well HELLO!
Dayum

that is a new one on me...I LIKE that!!

WRB: LOL! THANKS!! :>)

Have a GREAT DAY! :>)

I'm Out - E for most of it! :>)

Miss U'ALL!! :>)

EXACTLY!!! Somehow it gets twisted back around to being MY fault you drew an offensive cartoon?? Its so completely crazy you just have to laugh at it.

Isn't that how it always works? Sometimes being black in America is like being a rape victim - it's blame the victim first. She had it coming or Did she really say no?

Exactly, like that nut case Sno Ho Palin, wanting to charge rape victims in Alaska for rape kits.

Let me see, some fuck just poisoned me with is slimey semen against my will and you want me to do what?

Pay for a lil smear kit to collect the shit?

What insanity!

Miranda: LOL! :>)

Your use of the WORD - "CRAZY" is more than apropos!!

That's my WORD for ALAN KEYS 2! :>) :>)

We're too sensitive! Can't we take a joke?

I'm f-ing tired of this sh%t.

"Ahhh baby, now why you make me hit you? Dont you know it makes me angry when you don't fold my shirts this way? Why you make me mad?"

I'm sorry baby, I won't make you mad again - can I go to the hospital to make sure my nose isn't broken? Is that alright with you?

Nope.......I'm not going out like that. They trying to make us all battered women who excuse the batterer and feel the need to understand why he beating our azz...nope....I'm not the one.

Miranda

You're a scream! I laughed so hard. You're too funny! lol

Miranda: LOL!! :>)

Annnnnd, IFFF I may:


No OCIFFER, He di' in't hit me. I RAN INTO HIS FIST!! MY BAD!!

I HOPE I di'in't hurt his fist.

Ima take HIM to the HOSPITAL.

Can we catch a ride with U!???

***shakin' my head*** :>)

No OCIFFER, He di' in't hit me. I RAN INTO HIS FIST!! MY BAD!!


You gotta laugh to keep from crying!! LOL

Yep! LOL!

"Ociffer"

Keep on telling it like it is and not like it was.

Justice58: LOL! :>)

Like OOPS!! JUST KIDDING!!

Exactly.

Another good analogy comes from a different situation - Juan Williams's ignorant statement about the first lady having a "Stokely Carmichael in a dress thing going on."

From Ta-Nehisi Coates's blog:

And you will know them by their strawmen. For the record Williams called Michelle Obama "Stokely Carmichael in a dress" and then said she tended to "blame America first." Saying that that's the same as calling Michelle Obama "a political liability," is like calling a woman a bitch, and then later claiming you simply meant she had anger issues.

http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/archives...

I remember that. His ass go called out for that shit too.

See, black folks can call each other out on the racial nonsense. i.e, the steeles, williams, armstrongs, keyes, capeharts and christies.

These black folks are racist too. They are hurtful, hateful, in their words and actions towards black people too.

We call black folk racist without batting an eye.

When it comes to white folk we got to tread lightly?

Hell no, the tides has turned. NEXT.

lol

Spirit, I love it. You're on a roll! Do your thing.

You notice the only people expected to be "understanding" and "sympathetic" are US. Its US that need to tread carefully and be careful in our approach...always just US.

I notice that, Miranda.

Here's my understanding:

I am Black multi-faceted woman

I am never sympathetic towards anyone.

I do have compassion within the limits of my own life experiences and understanding of those experiences.

If you apporach me in a spirit f cooperation, you're going to recieve that same spirit of cooperation from me.

I very rarely, if ever tread anything. As a matter of fact, I dive in to the deep in of the pool. I'm no Michael Phelps, but I'll make it to the other end of that pool and come out stronger.

So if I'm invited to dive into anything, my competitor had better have a life jacket.

I remember at a family reunion a few years ago when my cousin had a slide show with pictures of our great-grandparents, their siblings even some of our great great grandparents....have you ever noticed that when you see pictures from before the civil rights movement that they NEVER SMILE....men nor women...NEVER SMILE. Even more recent, my father doesn't smile in pics. In fact my mother and her sisters were the first pics I've seen of ANYONE from their generation smiling. I find myself constantly looking at the picture I have of my grandmother who was a sharecropper her whole life. It is a hardened look....dammit, on behalf of Daisy I'm not pacifying folks...I'm just not.

A picture paints a thousand words.

It's the same with my grandparents and great-greats.

I was invited to an election night party by a good friend who'sa Mn democratic delegate. she went to Denver for the DNC. Her dad was at the the party and was celebrating his 80th birthday.

I sat with him because I love the elderly. They hold a lot of wisdom, as you know. He told me he had lived a really challenging life, but he never complained. He didn't have too, his face said it all.

He only talked of the simple things that agve him joy. Like seeing his daughter on TV at the DNC holdin up her MN for Omama sign.

He smiled and wept when the results of PBO's win were annnounced. and I wept with him. I had an inch of a sense of all that he'd lived through.

Our ancestors carried the whites on their back, so that we could learn that we don't have to carry anybody but ourselves.

Miranda: S-P-E-A-K! :>)

Yep. We are expected to be "understanding" and not hurt the feelings of racists because we don't want them to feel "defensive" and they may run off and not deal with their racism.

Sorry, not buying it!

Is that not the most twisted "its not his fault I made him mad and he beat me" bullshit you've ever heard? We're supposed to embrace battered women's syndrome now?? Do they actually hear themselves speak?? The more I think about it, the angrier I get with that "understanding" crap. Hell, I shouldn't have to understand why a bonafide racist is racist nor should I have to understand why a ignorant, albeit nice white progressive is either! Its not incumbent upon me to give them "time" and "patience"...fuck that. Hell, we already suffer more from hypertension and high blood pressure because we always have to hold it in and be the ones conceding damn ground. I don't give a damn if they feel attacked and marginalized because they get called out on their own racism. Damn....only black people are even approached with the "you need to bear with us and understand" while we continue to disenfranchise you even when we dont know that's what we're doing...HOGWASH. I don't care about their damn guilt. Only negroes are thought so little of, that we would be asked to do that...and only negroes think so little of themselves that they would entertain that nonsense. No sooner than Eric Holder could say "thank you" from finishing his speech then here come the "buh-but we're not cowards!!!" cry from simpletons that will turn around and tell us "why y'all so mad about that cartoon?"...AARGH!!!! This shit makes me wanna holler!

Agree, we can experience wonderful health by wearing the anti-acceptance racial sheild.

I could give a flying fuck about how anyone who throws such vile, sick racist shit feels.

I tell you, Miranda, you just go ahead and holler!

Roll with it, Miranda!

Go on and tell it.

I totally agree. It is tiring - and it has often affected our health. There have also been studies done that show the connection between racism and stress. I am working on an article for my health and fitness blog about it and I found some of the information in a book called "Ultra Metabolism: The Simple Plan for Automatic Weight Loss" by Mark Hyman.

In it, he mentions that research has shown that women with high levels of perceived and internalized racism had higher levels of cortisol and were more likely to be overweight and accumulate weight around their bellies.

Imagine how that is compounded when they are asked to be "understanding" or are accused of imagining or being "overly sensitive" about racism.

It makes me want to holler too...

This stuff is REAL.....we cannot carry white folks burdens anymore...our backs are BROKE:

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/sep/24/health/...

http://www.newsweek.com/id/129020

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/559768
http://www.healthystartcoalition.org/Assets/Doc...

But we need to be understanding and tread gently?? Shit, we dying as it is with that damn approach....what more do the mofos want? My life is ALL I HAVE.

I know you better bring it, Miranda.

If we keep this up, dammit, I want to auditon for 'SURVIVOR"

I know damn well I'd win all the puzzle (mind) games and the physical challenges.

"The tribe has spoken, please bring your touch." SNUFF!

Anovelista: Major co-sign!!

How R "they" gonna have that "CONVERSATION" while RUNNIN"?

I'm just axin'. . . . .

That's too much like making sense GreenLadyHere!

Anovelista" LOL! :>)

***shakin' my head***

LAWD HA'MERCY!! :>) :>)

THIS IS A - MA - ZING!!

LOL!. I just have to LOL!!!!

Got to come better than that, don't they ?

Miranda said:

"She made comments that amounted to making excuses for why these racist azz people felt the way they did and chastised the "left" for not understanding why the people interviewed on the doc felt that way"

I hate that shit. That's what Cenk was focusing on; trying to give these dumb ass racist a pass. Sensitivity my ass. We can't help it if they're white.

The onus is on the racist, and they'd better recognize they're getting called on it.

Jack addressed the Real Harm their racist behavior causes, but these mofos don't want to hear that, they don't want to take any responsibility for their racist behavior, let alone hearing their ass is racist.

The onus is on the racist, and they'd better recognize they're getting called on it.

Exactly. The day people get over coddling racists (of any color - see Alan Keyes...) and making excuses for them, we'll really start to get somewhere in this country.

Anyone who wants to pretend that subtext isn't there is not to be taken seriously as far as I'm concerned.

I wholeheartedly agree with you.!

It's very simple to me. If you start comparing Black people to monkeys and apes, it's a problem. Period. (And by the way, were those attitudes passed down to you? We're you raised to believe that and did you pass it down to your children?)

If you start talking about professional hairstyles in the office and declare that the afro is inappropriate (as an ex-Glamour editor did last year) it's a problem. Period.

Want to start talking about a Black woman's behind? A Black man's inherent athletic ability? Tread lightly...

Cenk wrote an article at HuffPo explaining his position. It's quite clear that he very much recognizes the history and subtext, and he's discussed it many times on his show (racism, etc., not this specific situation regarding the Post).

I disagree with the initial part of his argument, but of course there's merit to saying that (generally speaking) we need to be careful in our approach of these issues because it's easy for all parties to get defensive. When that happens, it clearly reduces the opportunity to promote understanding and change.

Cenk has no cred with me or my expereinces on this issue.

I'll handle any such behavior towards me and my loved ones accordingly.

No body puts baby in a corner."

LOL

LOL!!!!!!!!!! Nobody puts baby in the corner!! LOL!! Girl that's a classic one right there!

Damn, skippy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GBy7rBzz_I

It really doesn't matter to me if the parties behind this cartoon get "defensive."

And frankly, it is even worse in my book if someone recognizes the history and subtext behind a racist image or act, only to try to minimalize or deny its impact.

There are definitely instances when people get overly sensitive - but this particular cartoon is not one of them.

It's not about the people who created the cartoon, it's about the uninformed people all over who DON'T know or appreciate the history. The question is how do we change that, and Cenk simply disagrees on the approach, NOT the final goal.

I see nothing wrong with having a reasonable disagreement on the approach if the end goal is the same. And yes, I hated that cartoon and my first thought when I saw it was that it was DEFINITELY racist.

I disagree. It's about the people who created, approved and published the cartoon AND people all over who DON'T know or appreciate history. The only difference is that the people behind the cartoon published and distributed it - perpetuating this offensive comparison with a long history in the United States.

As for a "reasonable disagreement," we can have one when it comes to whether or not Beyonce is a great singer or if the Steelers will win the Super Bowl again next year.

As far as this cartoon is concerned, as I said earlier, anyone who wants to pretend that subtext isn't there is not to be taken seriously as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not going to say that someone who disagrees with my position automatically shouldn't be taken seriously...that's a dangerous proposition in my opinion.

At any rate, other than that I understand your perspective and I don't necessarily disagree with it. And the funny thing is, if you watched the show regularly you'd know that Cenk doesn't pretend the subtext doesn't exist, not at all. Unfortunately you can only gleam so much from a 5 minute MSNBC segment. Granted, that's what *you* have to base your opinion on.

PS---Don't judge Cenk based on this ONE opinion or segment. And if you insist on doing so, I insist that you at least watch this very short video to give you a tiny bit of context on the guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPCJNG7iPeM

"PS---Don't judge Cenk based on this ONE opinion or segment."

Ahhh, perfect. I have read and watched Cenk before- not a whole lot, but enough to get where he comes from generally, or his "style", if you will. And you know what? He's normally a fire-breather. In everything I've heard or read from him before, not once did I ever get the impression that he's the sort of person who is given to ever tiptoeing around ANYTHING. Why has he chosen to tiptoe around this?

Considering the initial reaction from the progressive community (of which I am a part), one could argue that it was FAR riskier to take the position he took.

He wrote a HuffPo piece on this topic the other day so it's not like he didn't know his position was unpopular to the left!

He could've easily opted out of nuance and breathed fire (and gotten a much better response) but he didn't.

It appears we BLACKS are once again called on to be alm, docile. Well, I am not going to be docile.

I'm going to BREATHE FIRE like Cenk usually does. It does my spirit good.

But why? Like Plantsmantx asked, why did he choose a different approach with this?

I don't know, but he doesn't ALWAYS breathe fire. A few weeks ago he had this condescending British guy on the show saying that President Obama shouldn't go after Bush Admin. crimes.

I wanted Cenk to tear him up, but he didn't. Instead he calmly explained why he completely disagreed and it wasn't as satisfying to me as it could have been. Then again maybe his chances of getting through to the guest were better his way, even if it was less entertaining to the audience.

PS---I guess it depends on the situation, because he's clearly called people out for racism before: http://news.aol.com/newsbloggers/2008/01/09/ron...

I can see that your argument is more about Cenk than this article. Are you Cenk? Do you work for him? This is not about him or his show. My issue is with this ignorant, racist cartoon and its apologists, however subtle.

As far as you stating "I'm not going to say that someone who disagrees with my position automatically shouldn't be taken seriously...that's a dangerous proposition in my opinion" - I will say that anyone who disagrees or tries in any way to explain away comparing monkeys to Black people (I won't even get into the police brutality/assassination aspects of the NY Post cartoon) has a far more dangerous opinion. This is not about an ego stroke or making people feel good. You have already agreed that the cartoon is racist, so I will leave it at that.

And tell Cenk I said "What's up."

I'm a fan of his show so you can say I'm biased, but that also gives me much more context on his opinions. And since the video had Baratunde discussing the issue with Cenk, I think it's relevant since it's Cenk's opinion you're disagreeing with.

Besides which, I keep trying to make a *broader* point about approaching the issue of race and you keep bringing it back to the cartoon and Cenk (who you see as an apologist).

The Bottom Line: While we both agree that the cartoon is racist and ignorant, we disagree that there is more than one way to approach discussions of racism, at least in the context presented in the video.

I'll leave it at that and I appreciate the conversation.

Divide and conquer.They both made excellent points .Reminds me of the 2 camps of the civil rights era. One non violent the other by any means necessary.They both agreed that the cartoon was offensiveand racist(a no brainer)all Cenk was saying when you confront people directly they turn inwards and then nothing gets accomplish.What if Dr. King would have took the violent way to end American Apartheid,I would guess the vast majority of whites would have banded together to protect thier own instead of looking within themselves to say this is wrong.

No doubt. But Cenk gets to breathe fire whenever it suits him, and so do I.

I choose to BREATHE FIRE.

Cool, I respect that.

I fully understand what you are saying--there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. Personally, I am more like Malcolm. In the past, I have tried Martin's approach and
I was the one who ended up stressed out.
I have opted out of that game.

Word.

OK, I'll bite. Did Cenk basically say "Sure it's offensive etc. but in light of Eric Holder's saying that we're a nation of cowards about racism, we need to be careful not to call it racism -- because people will react badly and not be willing to engage"?

If so, I'm not convinced that's the point Holder ways trying to make.

Other than that, good job turning it to the positive opportunity, Jack. And thanks for posting so quickly!

jon, you bit it just right. Folks can't act any more badly than the racist behavior. If they get defensive and riled up, then they can deal with. That's not my problem it's theirs.

thank you, Jack

Looking forward to watching, Baratunde.