I am upset about this erroneous finger pointing at African-Americans regarding Proposition 8. Why are you so quick to believe whatever you hear? If someone told me 70 percent of gay people voted against Obama my first thought would be, I don't believe it! This political year was fraught with right wing lies. These right wing religious extremists are trying to deflect their responsibility for Proposition 8 to Black people and Black churches.Bear that in mind.

“Religious organizations that support Proposition 8 include the Roman Catholic Church], Knights of Columbus, Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) a group of Evangelical Christians led by Jim Garlow and Miles McPherson, American Family Association, Focus on the Family[and the National Organization for Marriage Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church, California's largest, has also endorsed the measure. The Bishops of the California Catholic Conference released a statement supporting the proposition. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) has publicly supported the proposition and encouraged their membership to support it, by asking its members to donate money and volunteer time. The First Presidency of the church announced its support for Proposition 8 in a letter read in every congregation. Latter-day Saints have provided a significant source for financial donations in support of the proposition, both inside and outside the State of California. About 45% of out-of-state contributions to Protect Marriage.com has come from Utah, over three times more than any other state…

Still, even though gays were fighting to preserve a basic right, it was the anti-equality side in California that seemed to have the most fervor. A symbolic low point for the gay side came on Oct. 13, when the Sacramento Bee ran a remarkable story about Rick and Pam Patterson, a Mormon couple of modest means – he drives a 10-year-old Honda Civic, she raises their five boys – who had withdrawn $50,000 from their savings account and given it to the pro-8 campaign. “It was a decision we made very prayerfully,” Pam Patterson, 48, told the Bee's Jennifer Garza. “Was it an easy decision? No. But it was a clear decision, one that had so much potential to benefit our children and their children.”

This is their real enemy. Don't trust exit polls. I think they are pitting one group against the other. African-Americans are less than 7% of the state population, do the math. Many more Whites voted and they put this over, not Blacks. What are the total numbers of each group that voted. Someone dug into the data and found that we're just now learning is that the exit poll was based on less than 2,300 people. If you take into account that blacks in California only make up about 6.2%, we get roughly 224 blacks who were polled. 224 blacks to blame an entire race! The truth is, I have heard that Prop 8 passed because of Republican support. 82% of Republicans admitted to supporting the proposition. They were not the ones who came out to vote for Obama. One blogger states that If you look at all the data, you'll see numbers for first time voters. They rejected Prop 8 by a 62-38 margin. These first time voters were overwhelmingly for Obama, 83-17. Without Obama, Prop 8 would have passed by a much larger margin.

I know someone who watches C-Span and they said most Blacks did not even address the question at all. And they do not have the money to fund a tens of millions of dollars Proposition 8 campaign. Note that they also targeted affirmative action for eradication in another state.

Rather than be upset at the phantom African-American menace, fight like hell. I cannot believe that these larger groups who came out in droves to craft and fund this legislation get a pass and Blacks are being targeted for the blame game. There is no right wing black conspiracy against gay Americans. When you tried to align your struggle with that of Blacks you inherited their enemies. These same enemies are now trying to pit one against the other because they fear the combined numbers of both. Even if Blacks stayed home it would have passed because the extreme religious right and republicans would have raised the dead to get them to vote for it. They funded that campaign, not Blacks.

How many gay activists supported the civil rights movement in the 1960’s? Then how do you automatically expect support in return? Have you asked Blacks to support you or did you just assume?

Fight this in the court of appeals and not the court of biased opinion by targeting Blacks for hatred and enmity.

The argument that this is analogous to slavery and the civil rights movement is insulting. Slavery renders people property without any rights. This is an argument for one with the others intact. If you are not married no one can whip you, sell your children, or work you to death. Please revisit your history books. And as for it being comparable to interracial marriage battles, again erroneous. Obama is biracial. So are the majority of African Americans, who do now wish to go into the sordid details of how that happened. He is not a rare bird to us. That is why we were so up in arms about miscegenation laws. Forced sexual relationships were condoned and loving ones were not. It was an affront and we wanted our women protected and respected.

Now let's all unite and fight this bigotry that the last 8 years has fostered and supported. It has placed a yoke around all our necks, Black and Gay.

Picket at the church headquarters because that is where this all started. And do so with respect and dignity like Gandhi and MLK. I do not condone hate in any form but please recognize the difference between someone who does not agree with your lifestyle and someone who is actively seeking to deny you. Blacks are not actively working against you, that was the white church establishment with some black church support. You know who these churches are.

Attack the weakest links and you gain nothing. Storm the bastions of power.

Sorry for the typo.

Such grade school tactics are the hallmark that message is girded with unassailable substance and truth and no rational rebuttal can be marshalled to refute the logic and facts as stated.

Nice try Craig….did you throw sand at in the sandbox to get your way too?

The closet is a terrible place.

Gee, I have read all your posts in this thread and I think a bit of thinning of the herd isn't a bad thing. You intent is showing. It isn't that you have a different viewpoint, it is kind of the slimy way you post it. “Deviant isn't hateful…”

Yes it is when used with your tone.

When you use words like “collectively” with regard to contributions on a thread while questioning the intent of arguments posed; it sets up a dichotomy of challenging dissent vs. collective whole.

If that was not your intent, it is unclear to me what you are driving at.

I do consider it real dialogue to raise opposing views. There are other topics where I have views in the majority. The marriage issue for same gender is not one of them.

I did recall you were not advocating for the MEM and I guess that is what has me flummoxed about the questions you are raising in terms of my contribution to the collective whole.

I consider my position on the issue as having been presented honestly and truthfully. I am not trying to strike out at anyone individually or generate anger or pain. Unfortunately, this topic has greater propensity for that perception as individuals beleive that their personal anecdotes are emotional game changers that should supercede all logic when they aren't .

So again, I apologize for any hurt feelings as that was not my intent.

I had simply hoped to have a well thought out discusion on the issue which at is core is about societal rights vs. individual rights. A point which I think gets lost because people view marriage as an individual benefit when the institution exists for societal benefit.

There are lots of similarities to this in terms of public school funding. Where individuals want to receive tax credits to send their kids to private schools. They do not want to uphold the fundamental belief in public schools which were set up to benefit society and so all Americans could receive an education as that is existent to a democracy…not as a tax burden that individuals could opt out of it, if they had the money to send their kids elsewhere under the assertion of 'double taxation'', Public education benefits the whole and it's intent is for democracy to flourish not for the individual to simply be 'educated'

The claiming of 'double taxation' is analogous to gays claiming 'discrimination/separatebutequal' when the facts are they are choosing not to adhere to the policies and standards set up for the overall good of society and that then does not connote victimhood..it simply says that policies that benefit entire communities are not discriminatory vs. the pursuit of individual liberties.

You know from prior discussions that you and I have some areas of agreement and some of deep disagreement on the issues you raise yet again. You know, or should know if you had been paying attention, that that I have publicly stated on this site that am not an advocate of the Marriage Equality Movement even though I am a lesbian. My reasons are complicated. This whole issue is complicated.

Your false oversimplified dichotomy of “majority” and “minority” (opposing) views erases the complexity and lived reality of what is under discussion here. Like much of your other writing on this topic in arguments about it, it obstructs real dialogue and real learning. Your response sacrifices some aspects of what is going on that I would prefer to retain. It is also another display of false/misleading victim-posturing.

I am not going to continue this discussion with you from here on.

If you have looked inside yourself in an honest way and by your own assessment, you have determined that you are acting correctly in what you are doing on this topic, that's on you — how you assess your actions and act from there, how you engage here … these things are your choice, and your responsibility.

No one is pushing a faith on CPL. she acknowledges she is Christian. And Corithin does instruct Chtistians to judge other Christians behaviors.

Which I noted as judge the sin not the sinner or hate the sin not the sinner. So behaviors can be judged in Christianity and Christians are called to do so.

I agree that Christian tenets ask for deeds vs. words to demonstrate faith.

Is that not James..what good is faith without works?

It is their behavior that separates them and that behavior is one which they decide to engage in not one which society says they cannot engage in or that society has criminalized.

What society says is that men and women can marry the opposite gender. Everyone one is treated the same. Only homosexuals want to change those standards.

Gay men and women can choose to abide by the law and the institution of marriage as set forth under the law. They are not denied that right. So, the law is not discriminatory. No individuals are being denied rights.

After all the rules even say if you are a man and woman and brother and sister or father and daughter you cannot marry either.

Those are the standards and rules that govern the institution of marriage in our society. There is no compelling state interest to change those rules such that same gender sex practioners can revel in their own sexual liberties.

I could have used the term abnormal but it was not as precise

.Being precise is not hateful nor homophobic.

I am worried about children being raised in families where they have the opportunity to maximize their human potential.

Michelle, do I need to have a larger role here, to present an opposing argument? Your remarks above seem to say to me that my minority voice is not welcome if it is not contributing to the majority of collective voices at JJP..is that so? Am I to beleive that the majority on this site support homosexual marriage and will not contend opposing views?

All of which I find truly astonishing given all the verbage about 'oppresion' and discrimination of gays being tossed around.

Unbelievable.

No one is beating up on gays. That type of emotionally and inflammatory language on your part is absurd. Either you have facts to rebut the argument or you don't. Your whinning though is annoying and frankly juvenile.

I did not use a Bible to beat up on anyone. YOU sought to defame christianity because you have personal biases and issues about religion while claiming to be Christian.

You do not get to impose that personal distortion on others by spouting false statements about the church or Christianity.

And you attempt to have some moral authority by talking about accepting people unconditionally yet you are offended when I tell you that the black church does as well because that is a core principle of Christianity to welcome all sinners to worship in the church.

Somehow you twisted that to beating up on gays…

yes, God will be dealing with you soon.

Thanks for the positive feedback.