What I am saying is there are two sides to this. In my example, based on religious beliefs, a Christians cannot say it is okay for someone to do something if that they believe is against their religion.

That does not give anyone the right to attack a person because they don't agree with them. So in that context bashing does not = disapproval.

That is where we differ because I believe God has no color. He is the creator of all things so . . .that is what is so powerful about the God I serve. God does not discriminate and the rules apply to all of us. I cant find anything in scripture that supports the divisions between each other based the color of our skin and therefore I believe that division is man made and is based on choice . We all have our own personal relationship with God. This country is rich in the types of religion and beliefs and I would never say mine is better than yours because I don't know that. I only know my own faith and I can only go with my own personal convictions based on what I believe is truth as is written in the scriptures.
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“Another irony is black preachers counseling their flock to support conservative candidates, who were fundamentally racist, and who eventually were responsible for the economic decimation of the black community.”

and you also said “black reverend, pushing the story that gays are using the “N” word. Surely he knows this will create hatred between two very vulnerable groups that really ought to stand together. But, that doesn't stop him…he believes he has righteousness on his side, and he is drunk with power. He foolishly fights on the side of the Mormons…of all people – who hate us. He piously states there is “intolerance” in the gay rights movement…yet fails to see his own intolerance.”

That is my point — the men you described can call themselves anything they want Reverend but that doesn't mean they are of God. So everyone that says the are speaking for Christ you should assess the situation and discern whether this person represents truly represents Him. I also don't think Mormons hate any person, but they can hate an “act” that they believe is against God.

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“We have assisted in the taking away of rights from another vulnerable group. While all those whites were overcoming their fears enough to vote for a black man, we were not able to overcome our own prejudices. For the racist, religious whites who opposed Barack Obama, and told their flock not to vote for him…..this is a gift from heaven. They know that the seeds have been planted to help defeat any future black candidate. “

I don't think that is right. One has nothing to do with the other. I don't think that Prop 8 was defeated based primarily on our own prejudices, instead I believe the root cause of the failure is religious beliefs.

Remove the word “marriage” from the equation because of that definition is based on the religious belief that marriage should be between a man and woman.

Instead, Civil unions should ensure it provides the same services to ALL families that you would get for those who are “married” under the laws of the Church.

What I am saying is there are two sides to this. In my example, based on religious beliefs, a Christians cannot say it is okay for someone to do something if that they believe is against their religion.

That does not give anyone the right to attack a person because they don't agree with them. So in that context bashing does not = disapproval.

That is where we differ because I believe God has no color. He is the creator of all things so . . .that is what is so powerful about the God I serve. God does not discriminate and the rules apply to all of us. I cant find anything in scripture that supports the divisions between each other based the color of our skin and therefore I believe that division is man made and is based on choice . We all have our own personal relationship with God. This country is rich in the types of religion and beliefs and I would never say mine is better than yours because I don't know that. I only know my own faith and I can only go with my own personal convictions based on what I believe is truth as is written in the scriptures.
*******************************************************
“Another irony is black preachers counseling their flock to support conservative candidates, who were fundamentally racist, and who eventually were responsible for the economic decimation of the black community.”

and you also said “black reverend, pushing the story that gays are using the “N” word. Surely he knows this will create hatred between two very vulnerable groups that really ought to stand together. But, that doesn't stop him…he believes he has righteousness on his side, and he is drunk with power. He foolishly fights on the side of the Mormons…of all people – who hate us. He piously states there is “intolerance” in the gay rights movement…yet fails to see his own intolerance.”

That is my point — the men you described can call themselves anything they want Reverend but that doesn't mean they are of God. So everyone that says the are speaking for Christ you should assess the situation and discern whether this person represents truly represents Him. I also don't think Mormons hate any person, but they can hate an “act” that they believe is against God.

*************************************************************************
“We have assisted in the taking away of rights from another vulnerable group. While all those whites were overcoming their fears enough to vote for a black man, we were not able to overcome our own prejudices. For the racist, religious whites who opposed Barack Obama, and told their flock not to vote for him…..this is a gift from heaven. They know that the seeds have been planted to help defeat any future black candidate. “

I don't think that is right. One has nothing to do with the other. I don't think that Prop 8 was defeated based primarily on our own prejudices, instead I believe the root cause of the failure is religious beliefs.

Remove the word “marriage” from the equation because of that definition is based on the religious belief that marriage should be between a man and woman.

Instead, Civil unions should ensure it provides the same services to ALL families that you would get for those who are “married” under the laws of the Church.

Truth – you said “Religion is the racists last laugh.” Why would you say that?

Ironies abound with regard to African Americans and religion. We accepted the white man's god when we had nothing.

It was ironic that the white man used words from that god to justify our enslavement; but nevertheless, we found a way to make it sustain us through hard times. We really didn't have a choice…as our traditional religions were thought evil. We found inspiration in the pages of the bible – ideas that had been used by the Hebrew people to wage war on, enslave and oppress other tribes were used to help fuel the Civil rights movement, and win our freedom…(promised land) another irony.

Then, it is ironic to see the black preachers use the mechanisms of that same religion to control and re-enslave the sons and daughters of slaves. Reverend Wright – an educated man trained in the medical field – telling his flock that the government created aids, when he of all people should have known better. Wright instilled fear in a child-like congregation that trusted him to tell them the truth – the master and slave relationship…which is what Christianity is modeled after.

Another irony is black preachers counseling their flock to support conservative candidates, who were fundamentally racist, and who eventually were responsible for the economic decimation of the black community.

Tonight I watch Larry King…and there's another black reverend, pushing the story that gays are using the “N” word. Surely he knows this will create hatred between two very vulnerable groups that really ought to stand together. But, that doesn't stop him…he believes he has righteousness on his side, and he is drunk with power. He foolishly fights on the side of the Mormons…of all people – who hate us. He piously states there is “intolerance” in the gay rights movement…yet fails to see his own intolerance.

That's like the Klan calling Jeremiah Wright a racist. One would think they wouldn't be so sensitive.What was it you said?….your god gives the right that anyone can choose what they want, but take responsibility for the result…and not expect others who don't believe to “approve”. “Bashing” = disapproval.It only feels like bashing because it's uncomfortable. Perhaps gays feel this same discomfort from your “disapproval”.> Subject: [jackandjillpolitics] Re: Fighting Prop 8 Discrimination in CA> From: > To: maven_haven@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 06:48:05 +0000> > Val (unregistered) wrote:> > All this religion bashing lately I have to step out and say let us put this in perspective. I am all for freedom of choice but as it relates to bashing religion in order to legitimize why homosexuality should be accepted by all to include the Church — that is wrong. > > Truth – you said “Religion is the racists last laugh.” Why would you say that? Let us use Christianity as an example because there are many types of religion. Not everyone who proclaims that they are servants of God are of God. You can't change God to suit the situation because God does not change and He never will. He is the same God of yesterday, today and forever. > > “Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets – Who in their preaching describe a broad way to heaven: it is their prophesying, their teaching the broad way, rather than their walking in it themselves, that is here chiefly spoken of. All those are false prophets, who teach any other way than that our Lord hath here marked out. In sheep's clothing – With outside religion and fair professions of love: Wolves – Not feeding, but destroying souls.> > 7:15-20 Nothing so much prevents men from entering the strait gate, and becoming true followers of Christ, as the carnal, soothing, flattering doctrines of those who oppose the truth. They may be known by the drift and effects of their doctrines. Some part of their temper and conduct is contrary to the mind of Christ. Those opinions come not from God that lead to sin.> > 1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.> > *********************************************************************************> We all come from God and are spiritual beings. Everyone has a right to make their own choices on how to live their lives and no one should stand in judgement except Christ himself but, you cannot expect someone to go against their religious beliefs and stigmatize them because of their faith because it is contrary to the decisions you have made.> > > > > Link: http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/11/figh...> > –> You may reply to this email to post your response. To turn off notifications, go to your Disqus settings at: http://disqus.com/settings/notifications/
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Truth – you said “Religion is the racists last laugh.” Why would you say that? Let us use Christianity as an example because there are many types of religion. Not everyone who proclaims that they are servants of God are of God. You can't change God to suit the situation because God does not change and He never will. He is the same God of yesterday, today and forever.

“Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets – Who in their preaching describe a broad way to heaven: it is their prophesying, their teaching the broad way, rather than their walking in it themselves, that is here chiefly spoken of. All those are false prophets, who teach any other way than that our Lord hath here marked out. In sheep's clothing – With outside religion and fair professions of love: Wolves – Not feeding, but destroying souls.

7:15-20 Nothing so much prevents men from entering the strait gate, and becoming true followers of Christ, as the carnal, soothing, flattering doctrines of those who oppose the truth. They may be known by the drift and effects of their doctrines. Some part of their temper and conduct is contrary to the mind of Christ. Those opinions come not from God that lead to sin.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

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We all come from God and are spiritual beings. Everyone has a right to make their own choices on how to live their lives and no one should stand in judgement except Christ himself but, you cannot expect someone to go against their religious beliefs and stigmatize them because of their faith because it is contrary to the decisions you have made.

I agree and disagree with that at the same time. What I have noticed out here in CA is that Religion is the last laugh, last fortress, last cloak-and-dagger, and last suicidal resort.

I support the No on 8 movement and I am either a turn coat or scapegoat as an African American. We were blamed for its passing despite the fact make up less than 10% of the population.

I am excited to see that those who opposed the Prop are not going quietly into the night and I actually look forward to seeing how this plays out.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/us/politics/1...

And for a JJP angle: Join the Impact is centered on a Wetpaint wiki — just like the Voter Suppression WIki, and several of the same Wetpaint folks are involved. Our experiences, which in turn built off the Clinton Attacks Obama wiki, clearly had an influence … although as I say in my post,

Observing the incredible organizing skill of the Millennials who have grown up with these technologies it becomes abundantly clear how we were just scratching the surface. My reaction is consistently “wow, that’s kind of how I’d have approached things but they’ve done it much much better than I would have.”