Jack & Jill Politics

ok, peg, i won't put words in your mouth. let's see what came out of it: "white person and your comments bare that out".


i wonder when i have last used the "you're obviously black" in connection with "you don't understand".



anyways, i must concede you one: i truely can't jump.

Anonymous 5:58 again.


ms.martin -



You said:



Barack Obama should not give speeches that bring to the national stage that bring forth the shortcomings of one group and not bother to give speeches to other groups equally recognizing their failings.



But wouldn't that also meet the overly simplified implicit definition of pandering being thrown around here? And what if he is in no position to speak on the failings of the other group? Part of the reason Obama can speak on this issue is because he happens to be a Black man who grew up without a father (who I'm sure he would have liked to have had around). Whereas I doubt, for example, the Chinese community would take kindly to him talking about their shortcomings at length, given that he's not Chinese.

Okay, I'm anonymous 5:58, and I do have to say one more thing: It seems a lot of the criticism of Obama's speech above is rooted in a framing of "what will/White people (media) think? How will White people (media) respond?" Which I think runs the risk of shutting down legitimate, honest criticism of the Black community by the Black community when it is most needed.




I am no fan of airing out dirty laundry for the sake of airing out dirty laundry/appearances of being above the community (hence my disdain for Bill Cosby's recent rantings) and when I heard of the speech I didn't want to listen to or read it because I had just recovered from the AIPAC speech (which pissed me off quite a bit, the very very first time that's happened with this candidate) and was not in the mood. But then I came to this blog, which I currently enjoy and respect, and I read some of the responses to the speech and found they were so over the top negative that it made me think "something is off here". So I read the transcript of the speech to see what the deal was for myself, and honestly, it was not at all as harsh or crucifying as some people here are making it out to be. It's actually one of the better, fairer and sincere speeches I've heard on the issue given by a public official.

Well, I was getting ready to write practically a whole essay on the topic du jour, but instead let me just say this:


Those of you who weren't fans of the speech and are subsequently comparing Barack's critiques of the Black community with Bill Cosby's are, in my opinion, so far off base it's not even funny. For one thing, Bill Cosby probably thinks "Barack Hussein Obama" is way way way to "ethnic/urban" a name and that if Barack REALLY wants to make something of himself he should change his name to...oh let's say William...just sayin'.

Here, I think it speaks for itself in regards to this


Here You Go

B-Serious,


I do not think that people are defending deadbeat dads nor denying that they exist. I resent them. The effects of this on the children and the burden on the mother is not fair.



Many speak about this and it is a predictable conversation. It is surely not a black conservative conversation. I avoided the local community center out here in Brooklyn on Saturday in favor of holding a cookout for fathers. I really did not feel like sitting through yet another talk about absentee black fathers. It was Father's Day weekend, I prefered to celebrate the amazing black fathers. I had a tremendous turnout.



I am a womanist, black womanist. I have never witnessed (personally) a black man abandon his family. I had my father and saw strong male rolemodels in my grandfathers, uncles, cousins, family friends, friend's fathers and neighbors.



The stats are there but they are a lot more to many of these statistics.



Nonetheless, I work effortessly speaking about the issues that occur in the black community (even though I know they are not exclusive to us). I am not denying the issue of too many absentee fathers, I am rejecting the political manner by which this was done.



I also despise the fact that yet again the absentee black father is the face of black fatherhood rather than my dad and so many others.

Marc,


Without putting words in my mouth,

you said it, you don't understand.

"For some reason, Barack Obama has a problem with telling anybody but Black people that they should "squarely face [their] own complicity in [their] condition."


b-serious



All things addressed being true, it is still not the issue for me. You're entitled to your opinion and me to mine and I will try and overlook you telling me how I should receive the speech and form judgments of Obama. The statement above really sums it up for me.



That being said, I don't know why so many are missing the point of the statement above and proceed to arguing the merits of the statements in the speech rather than addressing his attempt to publicly chastise a particular group or agreeing that it was political and then trying to justify with the fact that the statements are true.



They are two separate issues.



I will thank you not to tell me that I can't decide what to do with my vote and for what reasons.



Also, surely you can't believe that any of us condone absentee fathers or self-destructive behavior that cripples the black community and other communities.



So let me try this again: Barack Obama should not give speeches that bring to the national stage that bring forth the shortcomings of one group and not bother to give speeches to other groups equally recognizing their failings. When he does this, it is clear that there was an objective. PERIOD.



IT IS VERY SIMPLE.

nquest,


"the internalized racism "we" have where we not only think it's acceptable to have the EXTRA BURDEN of "structural inequality" et al but feel not only that it's a noble thing to succeed "IN SPITE OF" it but that "we" should do just that. . ."



Success "in spite of" is a necessity when a black man's got mouths to feed. Especially when having those kids was his CHOICE in the first place.



He has NO choice but to overcompensate for societal failures. He has no excuse to abandon his family. There's nothing noble in that. It's what he's supposed to do. I'ts what a single mother does all the time.



We can list the sacrifices single mothers make on a daily basis. But we often struggle to find similar sacrifices from the fathers in those same situations.



I'll fight for brothas who are kept away from their kids because of an unjust prison system or unfair family laws. I'll speak out against unemployment and wage gaps that make it hard for a black man to provide for his family.



But the black community needs to draw a line in the sand with some of these brothas. And my line is drawn at "choice." I will not waste time and effort on a brotha who willingly chooses to abandon his family. I'd rather spend that same time and effort helping the single mother and kids the father left behind.



The black community must ask itself whether the number of black men who willingly abandon their families is higher than we'd like to admit.



This doesn't let the government off the hook. But you can do both. You can fight for a fair shake and hold black men accountable at the same time.



So my main interest is the truth behind the numbers. If someone tells me that 70% of black children are born out of wed-lock and that the majority of our black babies have no fathers in their lives, then I first have to identify the problem before I get to the solution.



What accounts for these numbers?



Are the statistics true?



If so, what percentage of absent fathers are absent for reasons beyond their control?



If we can focus on those issues then we'll have something to work with. We can fight for the rights of those kept away from their children and throw the book at those who willingly abandon their families.

peg, i just had to be told! because i don't get it even if people try to explain.


now, certainly, you get it all. you get what blacks say and mean, and you get what whites say and mean.



ok, in my world it's all a wee bit more complicated. i do understand what was said here, i just happen to disagree.



not being black must be the reason.

Marc,


We weren't the ones the target of the pander. Mr. Obama knew exactly what he was doing.



It worked.

----------------------------------

so, in the end, obama wins over a white guy who anyways thinks him to be a good candidate.

-----------------------------------

Marc,


Congratulations on your whiteness, as you tell us how he was not negative.



I suggest you go to the Chicago Tribune or any other paper that carried the story of Obama's speech and read the post from many of your fellow white folks who were impressed by how Obama spoke truth to power to the Black men in our community who needed to hear the truth. How he was impressive, forthright, truthful, said what needed to be said, all the while not plucking that plank out of their eyes.



I sat amazed at the arrogance and condescending attitudes of SOME people when referring to others they deem as less (inferior) to them (superior) when referring to responsibility.



You have read most of the posts to that blog, yet have you not comprehended the responses from a Black perspective?



I can't go there with you because evidently you just don't get it and no matter how much many continue to try and communicate that to you, you just don't understand. That is why there will always be two Americas, one black and one white, and why Obama actually did choose to pander to get votes from people who appreciate him confirming that misconceived opinions about Black folks, but who still will not vote for him.



As BPM said, lets see him give "responsibilty" speeches in the BPM mentioned and see how he does with that!

squarepeg, i have said before that i'm white. so, as such things don't tend to change much, i can safely say again: i'm white.


now that we have that settled, i'd like to remind you that color was only an issue in my comment you refer to insofar as that i, as a white man, could relate to what obama said. the problems he spoke about are (oh, again) no exclusives for blacks.



and i could relate to what he said for how he said it. i did see the criticism, and i did not see him as being negative, but quite the contrary. i'm quite happy to repeat: there was the yes we can in it all over.



and i think the fact that a normal guy who just happens to be white sees himself in that speech might possibly show that he was not pandering to the white conservatives. in the very worst case they would anyway just see their preconceived ideas confirmed, not enough to make them vote him.



so, in the end, obama wins over a white guy who anyways thinks him to be a good candidate.



i don't think obama counted on winning any klansies, i don't think he was pandering, pandering would not work anyways here and i don't think that obama is stupid.

B-Serious,


The problem with all that "regardless of structural inequality" is the tacit acceptance of it. That's the last thing a politician should be floating.



And all this is old news. When was the Million Man March again??



That's right. Don't credit "Black conservatives" for having a focus on manhood/fatherhood and self-help. I don't know why folks act like they don't know what's really going on here.



P6 is about the only person to get close to the real issue of the internalized racism "we" have where we not only think it's acceptable to have the EXTRA BURDEN of "structural inequality" et al but feel not only that it's a noble thing to succeed "IN SPITE OF" it but that "we" should do just that, leaving the "structural inequality" in tact and, worse, that none of us should show no ill effects of it.



But let me reiterate, especially in a "post-racial" era with this "post-racial" campaign, THE LAST THING a politician should ever do is what Obama did.



Again, he didn't do that when he was in front a Native American audience even though he said they were "doing worse" on every indicator. He damn sure didn't do it with respect to White Americans, not even the "bitter" White folks...



No. He painted them as VICTIMS. He made EXCUSES for them and NEVER insisted that they take any "personal responsibility" for their situation. Instead of blaming anything on them, he placed the blame external to poor - working - middle class Whites.



Anger over welfare and affirmative action helped forge the Reagan Coalition. Politicians routinely exploited fears of crime for their own electoral ends. Talk show hosts and conservative commentators built entire careers unmasking bogus claims of racism while dismissing legitimate discussions of racial injustice and inequality as mere political correctness or reverse racism.



Just as black anger often proved counterproductive, so have these white resentments distracted attention from the real culprits of the middle class squeeze - a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices, and short-term greed; a Washington dominated by lobbyists and special interests; economic policies that favor the few over the many.



For some reason, Barack Obama has a problem with telling anybody but Black people that they should "squarely face [their] own complicity in [their] condition."

"But the timing seemed politically motivated."


Isn't this a catch-22? He's made this same basic speech in similar venues before. Wouldn't a decision not to give that kind of talk in that venue this time be politically motivated?

Marc,


You finally answered my question. From many of your comments I assumed before knowing that obviously you were a white person and your comments bare that out.



From your perspective as a white person, you did not see anything wrong in what Obama did, yet I am going to wait to hear his speeches to the communits BPM mentioned.



BPM to all your comments: AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!

I didn't like parts of the speech as well.


And, yes, it was opportunistic and Obama should be criticized for it. I wouldn't necessarily call it a "pander" because I think he honestly believes what he's saying. But the timing seemed politically motivated. And it appears as though the speech was designed to serve three objectives:



1. To reinforce his centrist, all-American/"he's one of us" bona fides;



2. To serve as a direct rebuttal to his critics' charges of elitism (a central theme being: "I didn't have it easy growing up and neither did Michelle"); and



3. To strengthen his status as a family man, particularly among female voters of all races (his speech can be seen as being just as pro-black single mother as it was anti-black absent father).



So I agree that the speech was politically opportunistic. Either he or someone from his staff must have thought this would be a good time for some tough love. Obama should have been aware of how the media would spin this. In that sense, his speech was a bit sloppy and reckless.



HOWEVER. . .



I respectfully disagree with those who feel that this somehow disqualifies Obama as a viable candidate. The punishment doesn't fit the crime as far as I'm concerned.



If it did, there'd be much worse transgressions to hold him accountable for than this; and much more cause to have never supported him in the first place (take, for example, Obama's centrist position on affirmative action).



But while I agree with some of the criticism I also agree that his speech is nothing new. Thus, I don't get the sense of shock that I see in this thread. He's said this stuff like this before. And I think many of us factored his Cosby-like leanings into our initial considerations of his campaign before before we decided to support him in the first place.

................................



On a separate note, I think it's important that we not automatically dismiss the black conservative view on this issue fatherhood.



Notwhitstanding Obama's speech, the issue of black fatherhood is very serious. And, while I abhor the demonization and scapegoating of the black boogey-man, I have little interest in defending deadbeat fathers (particularly those in my own community).



There are many principled black folk who don't see this as the demonization of black men. Rather, they see this as the protection of black children and the support of black women who've been overburdened with the responsibility of raising families all by themselves.



I agree with the person who said it's a matter of recognizing the millions of black fathers who DO take responsibility for their children. I'm all for tough love. But tough love means very little without positive examples and positive influence. Young black men should be held accountable, but they should also have goals with which to aspire.



Finally. . . we've got to have better arguments. Regardless of which side we fall on, I think our arguments have grown stale and hopelessly predictable on this subject.



Just last night, Marc Lamont Hill lost a debate (in my opinion) to Bill O'Reilly on the subject of absent fathers because he could not avoid two very simple arguments:



1. Regardless of structural inequality, fatherhood is a CHOICE -- no one forces you to be a father, that's a choice that you make on your own; and



2. Regardless of structural inequality, there are millions of black men who handle their responsibilities and don't abandon their children.



It may very well be true that black conservatives go too far in their criticism and black progressives don't go far enough. Many conservatives refuse to acknowledge the structural shortcomings of unemployment, lack of resources and assistance. But, if we are to get to discussing solutions, black progressives should do a better job at acknowledging that this problem does exist.



Politics aside. . . political scapegoating aside. . . we have to diagnose the illness before we can treat it. And that takes a certain amount of soul searching that we haven't fully come to grips with as of yet.



The Fox News/O'Reilly debate was too predictable. Marc Lamont Hill downplayed the illness while focusing on the solution. Not surprisingly, O'Reilly downplayed the solutions while emphasizing the illness.



I fall somewhere in the middle. I can't stand cultural stereotypes and the demonization of black men. But my empathy only goes as far as that father's willingness to take responsibility for his family. That black mother and black baby are jumping through similar hurdles of inequality and oppression. . . but they don't get the luxury to leave when times get rough.



Don't ge me wrong. . . we should do everything in our power to support the brothas that DO take responsibility. We should fight on their behalf and hold them up as an example for other men in our community.



But I have NO love or respect for a man who willingly abandons his family. I won't waste time and effort defending his, yes, excuses.



At that point, my efforts are better spent helping the family get back on it's feet than tending to an absent father's bruised ego.

...............................



So, while Obama is justifiably criticized for his approach, I've yet to see someone address the content and truthfullness of his statement.



Forget the politics at play for a second. . .just ask: IS IT TRUE?



Are the statistics true? Does anyone have any statistics or studies to disprove Obama or Cosby's assertions? Does anyone have any studies to disprove the conventional wisdom (a la Janks Morton's What Black Men Think)?



If so, I'd like to see them.



Because that will help us shape a solution and strategy for our community.

Thank you g.d.,


You said it all. This was a speech I am sure his handlers told him he had to make to appeal to white conservatives.



Now when will he make that speech about white folks who are holding onto their perceived entitlement of whiteness because they don't have an education, skills, jobs, etc... but have the audacity to talk about the inadequacies of other folks (Black) while ignoring their own high rates of the same societal ills.



I am going to wait for that speech, but I won't be holding my breath. Obama has determined that he has the Black vote and doesn't have to pander to us, so in his own way, we will be the bogeyman for the entitlement-prone white man who lives his life thinking that his superiority trumps all, and Barack Obama is playing their game, don't forget he is half white and has heard it all before. If he demonizes Black folks he won't be called on it because he is Black so he can give out those dog whistles that Black folks can hear but are choosing to ignore.



I am truly disgusted.

I guess it is true. Black people are harder on each other than any other race ever will be.

Well, Ms. Martin, the political system of our nation is corrupt, as is the judicial, educational, financial, health care, etc. Sometimes, we just feel overwhelmed by the enormity of the corruption and wonder why it has to be corrupt.It is discouraging, especially if you think about it too much. It could make a person depressed.


If O starts reading individual groups, he may as well endorse hillary. I pray he doesn't single out Blacks again (because he can get away with it), because too many people have been discouraged, even though I know this was not his conscious intent. I pray he can redeem himself with you & the others who have been offended. We are racially sensitive especially since we are bombarded with insidious racism on a daily basis.It hurts worse when it comes from family. I'm glad you let him know how you feel via his website. I think he would want to know. There are times when we will have to let him know, "We love you and we need you to clean it up." He will be the president of the whole nation, but he will be the 1st one who might really care about us. And I believe he does care about us, even though he made a mistake. Keep speaking truth to power.

"But none of you highly educated Obama supporters want to talk about that."


That's a very big assumption that seems inaccurate. It is the highly educated ones that are actually addressing his pandering because voting for someone doesn't mean following them with blind stupidity unless one is young and/or dumb. It seems that for too many "support" means blind allegiance and lack of critical analysis. I don't plan to live on a plantation just because Obama is half black.



BPM

Thanks Teacher, I respect you too and really enjoyed the posts you left on the open thread yesterday.


Thanks for hearing me. I have felt queasy before as I mentioned and I can't ignore it again lest I be the same old person who went away head bowed thinking well that's just the way it is for us.



I certainly didn't think Obama would be the black person's president nor want him to be, but I surely didn't think him to be the game player who would use us as others have. I believed the one America meme because it was a part of my desire long before I heard of him. Yesterday was not about America, it was about black folks and it hurt.



Well, again I have that head bowed feeling.

Ms. Martin, I really feel sad that you have been adversely effected by this speech. I wish there was something I could say, not to get you to change your vote, but to help you stop feeling like you (we) have been betrayed. I know how I felt when hillbilly started playing the race card, and I reached the point of no return with them. HEY! THEY ARE OFF THE RADAR!!!!! Same with Truthseeker. I respect both of you so much. Please try to be open to redemption.

honey101


I am so sorry, it was not you I was responding too it was heartsandflowers. Forgive me.

Is this the open thread? I've been reading so long I don't remember.


I AM NOT FEELING ANDERSON COOPER WITH HIS SHOW ABOUT ANOTHER DISEASE COMING OUT OF AFRICA FROM MONKEYS. Color me crazy, and I know it upsets white people, but I do think these diseases are created in a lab and given to the Africans in vaccintions so "they" can have the continent staight out.



I'm reading the opinions of those, pro & con, re: O's speech. It reminded me that, a few months ago, a judge kicked all the white people out of his courtroom so he could address the kinfolk. The next day he was on tv apologizing because people accused him of being racist for excluding the non-Blacks. The hammer really dropped on him, but he thought he was trying to help. I've invited Black students to the hallway many, many times, to give them an earful tailored specifically for kinfolk. I'm not going to stop either.



We are really adamant about our opinions on this subject. Please try to be respectful.

We don't need Obama or Cosby or any damn one else to tell us we have issues with families. We know that.


Do you not think that black conservatives were criticizing poorer black people even when the out-of-wedlock birth rate was lower. They did because the less fortunate (of all races) are the easiest targets.



It just occurred to me that what Obama said about poor white people behind closed doors (fear and clinging to their guns and religion) he feels perfectly at ease saying the equivalent about black people for white consumption.



But none of you highly educated Obama supporters want to talk about that.



Does that not give you pause?

I was really torn on this issue, but after seeing the speech and reading all the comments here, sadly I have to agree with Rhonda, Truth, Ms Martin and Nquest.


It is most definitely pandering and I wrote a comment on JJP some weeks back when CPL wrote that post that went along the lines of "Black people need to do better"



Running off a laundry list of negative things that I would think many on here cannot attribute to themselves.



Once again my point is, why is it okay to constantly label and judge "The Black community" by the least of us instead of uplifting and supporting the best of us?



I don't want to vote for someone for the color of their skin but by the content of their character. However Obama has given me hope that he would at least attempt to be a fair Ambassador and leader for ALL Americans not just the majority or for that matter the minority.



However the truth is simple, he has a job to do and it will never get done if he does not open the eyes of America to the fact that we are in this shit TOGETHER.



It's all fine and good not to call white people the boogeyman but why is it all too convenient to make Black America as a whole, their own boogeyman.



I don't know if this is coming across as intended but it's a sore subject. I can see both sides, but unfortunately my opinion falls on the side that is disappointed, in the end with Obama's choice in making this a national speech for his own electability.

Black people have always been poor
while dealing with much more racist times than the present. Yet a generation ago, 75% of black children were not born out of wedlock. This cannot simply be blamed on the economy or racism. That is only a small portion of the problem.

I never doubted Obama's humanity. On that day, in that venue, he was giving the stereotypically predictable speech...predictable from the standpoint of only race. O could have spoken from the standpoint of humanity..and wished them a happy father's day. He could have honoured the good fathers.


I am sure that O's kids didn't greet him of Sunday morning with a list of things he'd done wrong all year, then proceed to read him the riot act.

If you read or listen to the entire speech he said this is a problem in America, not just black America, but ALL America. He was not pandering, it is his belief. It is the belief of most of us (AA). We know it is a problem. An entire generation of AAs
has been lost. You need to search within in order to discover the real reason this speech bothers you. Whether he gave the speech or not, all Americans see this problem and know the answers. This problem applies to white youth as well as black. It was the perfect speech for Father's Day and it was given in a respectful manner. He is trying to lift up the black youth

because he is black. Not voting for him would be a mistake. Surely

no other candidate understands or cares as much as he does.

Obama is a panderer....Shocking


Obama singles out black fathers for criticism but still expects all of their votes...Shocking



Black people continue to make excuses for him..Shockingly Sad



Are we this desperate for "hope"?





Abstain in Nov

Honey101 you like an earlier anon seem to be missing the meat of this discussion.


Hi Ms. Martin,



I may have missed someone using Honey101 as a tag in this thread (did not see where you could be replying to), but just wanted to check as I sign "Honey01" and this is my first post in this particular thread.

Obama sure has a lot of fair weather friends here.


You can disagree with his sentiment, but he's said this numerous times in numerous venues. Why the surprise? Why didn't you call him on it before? And how is it political pandering if he's been saying the same thing for years?



Disagree with him all you want, but don't act like it's a sudden, horrible change in him that has you reconsidering your support.

O-Force is slapping his kids around to show off for company.

Chaz - "Unlike some I think he has a responsibility as a black man and politician to speak to the community."




Hmmm... I wonder why people aren't saying "he's not running for president of Black America" now. It would be different if he would just as strongly, directly and loudly push issues, policies and programs for African-Americans the same way he likes to chastise. It would also help if he did his Cosby routine in a way Cosby didn't -- i.e. without stereotypes and other assorted bs firmly in hand.





I want to know who the hell he and other are talking about in terms of making "excuses" when there's a consensus that this type of stuff is said every day (or on the regular) in the Black community/church AND why the curious (and most definitely) FALSE DICHOTOMY.



Who the hell has said the reason why Black men aren't being fathers is because of racism? How many dead-beat Black dads said the reason why they have shirked their responsibility is because of racism?



"It's racism, man. If it wasn't for racism, I would be taking care of my kids right now. Because it still exist... I can't."



Who has ever heard some bs like that? Where the hell did Barack hear that sh*t (other than from Bill Cosby or Juan Williams)?



I mean, this simple azz thinking comes from the brother people credited with having such a nuanced view on things Race in America. Hmmm... It must have been too tempting for him to fall right in line and go with the simplistic, stereotype laden STRAW MAN instead.



UNACCEPTABLE!!!!





And DAMN YOU BARACK!!!



"Yes, we need more cops on the street. Yes, we need fewer guns in the hands of people who shouldn't have them. Yes, we need more money for our schools, and more outstanding teachers in the classroom, and more afterschool programs for our children. Yes, we need more jobs and more job training and more opportunity in our communities. But we also need families to raise our children."



WHY THE DIFFERENCE IN TREATMENT?





How come Black people are the only people who are "encouraged" to take "personal responsibility"? And, worse, this is the same mf who tried to rationalize that "bitter" White sh*t with the idea that "they don't feel particularly privileged."



Somehow, the notion of having to fix a problem that is not (completely) of your own making is something only Black folks are held responsible for. Obama says "those (past) injustices are real" but does NOT account for THE REAL CONSEQUENCES of them. Instead, he regards that nuance as EXCUSES. Typical and UNACCEPTABLE!!!

Anon 4:48-


Becuase he's biracial? No! You are being silly!



Val-



You obviously dont get it. I KNOW THAT PEOPLE TALK ABOUT IT ON A REGULAR BASIS...DUH...roll from under your rock!



Obama is not original in what he said...duh!



Thats not the point!



I grew up in a conservative black family! This is not new but one aspect of our respectablity is that you never do things like this in public. I dont care if Obama was in a black church, he was live on C-Span.





The fact that only the negativity about blacks is advertised and given attention is the reason why my cousin visiting his family from Cornell canget dragged out of a car and embarrased on a main road. We talk about the 1 in 9 who go to prison So the one who goes to prison is the face of the black community in the same way that the absent black father was the face of the black community for Father's Day .



No wonder my white professor once said "Black men are incapable of being fathers...it is probably genetic." She never Hears about the ones who are and when she sees a black man she probably simply assumes that regardless of the circumstance. A white boy thought that my father was just some random man! "That's you father!" As if the hundreds of black families in the neighborhood do not exist.





I dont think people understand why some are not okay with this speech at this time.

To me, it seems like people are upset that a biracial man made the comments. Look at how many times his white heritage has been brought up in this thread.


If a Tavis Smiley or a Al Sharpton or another leader with two black parents had said the same thing, there wouldn't have been any backlash.



The irony is that while people are complaining about how his speech will cause white people to see us, they're using talking points of white people -- who have proven on more than one occasion that they'll slice and dice anything we say to make a story -- to criticize Obama!



And why isn't all this outrage posted in the thread about Al Sharpton using us to fill his bank accounts? If you're gonna be so upset when a black politician uses us for personal gain, be consistant and call out ALL OF THEM.



Finally, let's stop acting like Obama has never talked about the economy, healthcare, crime and unfair sentencing when it comes to rock and powder cocaine.

Last response and then I have to go all.


Regarding:Anonymous said...

Where was all this self responsibility and family values during slavery when the slave masters were raping black girls and selling off their children and not allowing black men to be men? What about the women who couldn't recieve aide for this dependent children if there was a man in the house? Obama needs to get his history straight.





One word . . . BULLSHIT

oh please.


I don't have a problem with it at all and I certainly do not interpret it as "Its like saying that you never heard someone ridicule young people for using the "n-word" garbege."



Apples and oranges. I don't see the connection. I really don't.



I say the same things to my nieces and nephews all the time. I say it to the folks in my neighborhood, to teens I mentor at my church and at teen community forums, I especially say it to the teen boys in my outreach program, and I say it when hanging out in groups with my adult friends. I don't have a problem with it. It is the truth.



This isn't the first time Obama talked about these issues and he didn't just say these things to blacks. Go to youtube or google his speeches on fatherhood and parenting. He says pretty much the same thing to ALL parents in all walks of life. This speech was more specific because it was tailored to the attendees. I have no problems with it.

Val-


"I don't have a problem with the speech. I think it is warranted and long overdue."



You obviously have not been paying attention if you never heard this.



Its like saying that you never heard someone ridicule young people for using the "n-word" garbege. However if Obama made a speech about what I just mentioned, I would go crazy.







I think that some of you are missing the point as to why some are not ok with this "speech".



I am going to refrain from posting here because I am not interested in arguing. However, I will write about it on my blog tonight. Come on over in about two hours if you would like to read it.

Where was all this self responsibility and family values during slavery when the slave masters were raping black girls and selling off their children and not allowing black men to be men? What about the women who couldn't recieve aide for this dependent children if there was a man in the house? Obama needs to get his history straight.

Anon 4:04


What a lot of people heard was justification for the way the think of black people

"So what. Who cares what others think"


If it were only about what they thought, but it's not, their thoughts affect their actions and the way treated and the way legislation is passed.



Them being the majority is what makes what they think important - hence the pandering.

I feel like absentee fathers is a problem that affects all Americans in one way or another, but AA communities in particular. Growing up in the my neighborhood was hard, but it could have been worse without a steady hand (my father) at home. My father is old school, and this weekend we talked about this speech and we talked about Bill Cosby's comments and the 'dirty laundry' argument. He said some may call it pandering, but he called it the truth. Obama's prominence doesn't hurt his cause or diminish the truth and it shouldn't be a problem to address this issue. It used to be a shameful thing to be a man who didn't take care of his family, but now it's a joke and common, and maybe TV is the only place we can hear that it still isn't cool, and that it still carries harmful repurcussions. It would have seemed like pandering had I NOT heard him address this issue before and all of a sudden he was on TV putting it all out there. He knows what it feels like to be raised without his father as well as the sense of emptiness and confusion that situation can foster. I'm glad he made the speech, and I'm glad that he's using the national stage to do so. I personally don't give a damn what other people think of me. No one else can define me, and Barack doesn't define US. We are continually allowing our complacency with our family situations and defeatism define us, and white people or anyone else for that matter, don't need Obama to point it out. The evidence IS on the streetcorners, and bullshitting in school. Come on man, it's not all good. We've been saying it in closed circles to each other for years, in Black forums and SOU's for years, and what's different? Nothing, so I'm glad he said it where he did, maybe folks will hear him a little better. Not just us, but everyone.

I don't have a problem with the speech. I think it is warranted and long overdue. Who better to give it than a black man (even if he is half white) who was raised without a father. So there is no better time than now. Obama touched upon fatherhood in a broader scope so in areas of his speech he touched on all fathers, however his focus in this setting was on the black community as his speech was given to a mostly black forum and spoke to those needs. He pointed out that there are great fathers, ones who stand up and take responsibility and who are active in the lives of their children. Then he turned his attention on the ones who needed it . . . the children without fathers. I have no problems with him calling a spade a spade. None at all. I understand the context of the speech and I understand and agree with it. I wouldn't change one word.


I hear the ones who say, well this is going to give "whites" the feeling that they have a pass at saying whatever they want to the black community. So what. Who cares what others think . . .One has nothing to do with the other and you don't have to accept negative statements if untrue. What is more important to me is that this speech could give dead beat fathers a wake up call to push them into taking a more active role in their children's lives. You never know . . . the child you reject may just be the next President of the United States.



Long overdue.

Remember when the late Tim Russert pointed his finger at Obama and made him renounce and reject Louis Farrahkan? Remember when Louis Farrahkan organized the Million MAN march and preached about the exact same thing Obama preached about in his so called Fathers' Day Sermon?
Obama wasn't talking to our about my Daddy, his Daddy or his Daddy's Daddy. Nor was he talking about my brothers, my uncles or my cousins. The people he was talking about weren't listening because they are probably in prison for using or selling dope. Or they can't vote because they are convicted felons for using or selling dope because they can't find jobs that will support their families. Barack must have been talking about his own Daddy being MIA. Speaking of which, his Daddy was MIA and he turned out OK. Obama can't have it both ways, he can't brag about being the product of a single mom then criticize other single moms. Obama might have just lost the single mom vote. Maybe he can make up for it with the blue collar worker vote that his speech obviously pandered to.

Rhonda,


No, like most non-scandalicous politicians in the top tier of national politics he's seen as a role model because most people don't make it to such a level of prominence.



All,



Regardless I understand all the sides to the wonderful debate over the father's day issue. Unfortunately I'm outta time.



Peace.

-Chaz

Yea, Obama is a role model as he is being looked upon as the only black man whose got it together. It works for his electability to make it seem that way.

Rhonda,


He did address where the government can help in this process of strengthening families. But once again I'll say, being a politician isn't just about making laws. We should expect more from elected officials not less.



Like it or not they become role models and it has long been a tradition for those in positions of authority to speak to issues beyond pure policy.

Yep, Obama is a common panderer who is solicit votes on the backs of Black America. The very politicians he studied he emulates.


BPM

ms. martin,


I never assumed anything. I apologize if you felt put upon. I merely took your comment as a springboard to make a broader comment. It was premature and the result of ending up in the same place during discussions of a similar trajectory. Again, I didn't intend to insult.



I'm going to reserve judgment on whether Obama is "using" black people. I haven't seen enough to convince me.



Regardless I think the charge of unequivocal pandering is a reach. Given his history of statements it does seem consistent.



Unlike some I think he has a responsibility as a black man and politician to speak to the community. Why? Because we're in a special moment, we could elect the first AA president and with that comes a powerful moment for that candidate to change the minds of young and old.



For me the process isn't just about pandering for votes. True mature politics is give and take. Not just politicians doing and saying what I want and not saying what won't offend. Is BO perfect, not by far. No, and I've criticized his shortcomings. But this speech doesn't muster for me.

Did it cross anyone's mind that Barack's targeted audience every single time he gives this speech is comprised of young black boys who don't have a father figure in their lives who will tell them these things?


Clearly he knows that young black boys look up to him.



Clearly he knows that as the most prominent black male politician in the nation this day, his words will fall on many of their ears.



If this speech makes Barack unelectable, so be it.



But his message is important and I couldn't care less where he delivers it and what those who overhear it might think.

Hi everybody,


I am quietly reading the conversation.



I will respond later.



Hi, Rhonda! (other poster with the name Rhonda)

Like them or not, Barack's stances on the matters in question in this speech are consistent.


Well then, he shouldn't just limit his teachings to the black community, he should be willing to take them to a white church as well.

Also, some of you dont seem to understand the reason why some were not okay with the speech. Last time I checked, Barack was a politican. Why can't he address the issues that he can really help change in regards to government and the black community but can attack the short comings of some of us. How many times and how many people have said the same thing? Obama is not going to change certain things and he knows it. I know what he was trying to do with this.


I mean some of you said it! Blacks have no monopoly on any of the issues that people consider to be "bad black pathology" however we as a sociey still perpetuate it. I thought that Obama believed in American issues. I thought that he refused to label an issue exclusive to a race but he does it to us.



Also, some of you dont seem to understand that the only thing that people hear coming out of the black community is the negative. It doesnt matter if this does not apply to those with fathers or those who are fathers. We are al getting slapped with the label as everything else esp. when it is done on a national stage for all to see. The good never get the time of day only the bad. Yet with whites and others, the bad never gets the time of day.



I was angry with Obama when he told blacks in Texas to stop feeding their children "cold chicken for breakfast". That was not cute.



You see, my friends (McCain style) sometimes its not the message but how the message is framed and how it is presented. Whatever good intention he had was lost because of his failure to do the latter.

Obama doesn't speak exclusively for the blk community but he is giving off that impression with every pandering speech pimping out the black community to get votes from other communities. Typical pandering arse.


BPM

I guess for me pandering means going against your principles, changing your policies even, and/or promoting bullshit policies in order to attract votes from a demographic.


Take, for instance, John McCain telling Hillary's supporters in a private metting that he's willing to support her choices for the Supreme Court. Well, unless Hillary has become an enemy of Roe v. Wade while none of us were looking, I can't imagine he's really going to support her choices for Supreme Court. And if he is, then he's flatout lying to his base to try to make himself appear more conservative than he is.



Like them or not, Barack's stances on the matters in question in this speech are consistent.

Chaz


Dont assume you know me. I didnt vote for Clinton either time and am not threatening to hold my vote for McCain.



But SBO is the one who ran on change and if he is going to use black voters to gain white ones, that's no change and I won't be interested.

Ms. Martin,
"If not, I won't be voting for him."



Regardless, I hope that isn't a McCain vote. Given your high standards I also hope you didn't vote for Clinton the second time (Some would include the first I don't but Welfare, Lani Guinier or "quota queen",crime bill?, mandatory min laws?), because he sure as hell threw us under the bus. And these were policy and laws that actually hurt black people.



I have no problem with people having more qualms than me, I do hate hypocrisy though.



-Chaz

"An newsflash, AA don't have a monopoly on unwed mothers, or dead beat dads. Would it have been better for you if he had made this same speech in a predominantly white church."


You should probably ask yourself why he doesn't say anything like that to white churches in light of your quote above? If they have problems why is he not preaching to them about those problems too? I suspect that if he did this in front of a white church it would be no different that the all black bashing all the time that he is starting to enjoy too much.



BPM

lamh,


Duh, its not new and blacks talk about it despite public opinion, we have addressed issues of black manhood and fatherhood however if you know anything about respectablitiy then you would know that you dont do things like this on a national stage unless you want to make a point. You dont scold your own in public. And dont tell me that he was in a black church because he knew damn well that it would be on television. He is running for president.



As I said before on this blog, I attended Obama's former church (Trinity United Church of Christ, the name of the church before Obama got famous). We talked about black fatherhood and manhood in a way that is celebatory. We praised those who do the right thing. On Father's Day, we make them stand up and clap for them like they do in other churches! We do the same thing on Mother's Day! Wright used to deliver sermons about the power of the strong black family to overcome obstacles.Moss has also delivered similar. However this was different. This did not sit right with me. Some of his choice of words were offensive.



When I was an infant my father walked out after losing his job. The pain of not having a job was too much. My parents were not married. It was the seventies and times were tough. A lot of that happened back then! He returned when I was 6 and my brothers: 8, 10 & 11. My sister was 8. He went to his grave regreting those years that he missed. He made them up in our book because he was there for us for the majority of our lives. He did so much for us and we have so many wonderful memories. However, he never saw it that way. He still felt guilty about the time he missed. He was a good man and a good father. He died of pancreatic cancer in 2005. I miss him dearly.



I had a wonderful father's day with my husband, three brothers and my sister's husband. Four good black fathers who according to public opinion do not exist. We laughed, talked, went out for seafood and remembered pops.

..."national stage". It seems to me that you feel like Obama personally called "you" out. As you said, this is not your situation, but I can tell you that I know a lot of AA in that situation, not just in my family, but in the community where I grew up.


Besides, as I understand it, Obama has been saying these things all along, it's just with this campaign that so much media attention is on Obama. Does that make what is said any less pertinant to many people's situation. An newsflash, AA don't have a monopoly on unwed mothers, or dead beat dads. Would it have been better for you if he had made this same speech in a predominantly white church. It still would have gotten national media coverage, but would you still feel like he was putting black folks business out there, or that he was talking about white people?

However, unlike some Dems I don't think he's going to sell out blacks and others like some (Bill Clinton) when the rubber hits the road of governing.




I'm not worried about that either, but I don't like him making spectacles out of us.

"Wow.....


Looks like I'm going to have to register MORE new voters. From the looks in this piece, Obama just lost the black vote."



Dontcha just love these binary thinkers?

T that register new voters comment was directed at me because I said I would register new voters to replace the racist Hillary supporters who wouln't vote for Obama.


I won't except race-baiting from him anymore than I will Hillary or McCain.

What you're missing though is that he was running in a heavy Republican state - again pandering though I didn't know this - I only knew of his popeye and someother bullshit speech in Texas which also pissed me off, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt.


Agreed. But then I have no problem admitting he was pandering. However, the truth and personal reflection in his words (read: Dreams of My Father) make this one not so offensive to me.



I'm not sure what some of those angry over this were expecting. I suppose I'm so jaded that I didn't buy the "new politics" angle and focused my support on policy.



However, unlike some Dems I don't think he's going to sell out blacks and others like some (Bill Clinton) when the rubber hits the road of governing.

lamh


yes, let's let your pastor speak to his congregation an Obama can speak to the nation regaring issues affecting all Americans.

I emailed the Obama campaign and told them I could do without anymore black folk speeches.


I hope he's finished criticizing black folks, maybe I can heal. I really want to cancel my t-shirt order.



If not, I won't be voting for him.

Teen pregnancy, gang/drug violence was bad. I am the result of an unwed teen mother. My cousins had her first child at 13. Teen pregancy got so prevelant that the local school decided to put a day care on the premises. And tht was just over 19 years ago.


So yeah, my pastor would have sermons with the same message as this one.

It is obviously political pandering and since he cared so much I have to now wonder why he didn't attend the State of the Black Union to say these things.


BPM

"this speech other than being seen on a national stage"


I guess you didn't read the other comments because this is PRECISELY my problem!

"Further, what few have responded to is the fact that his message to the AA community has not changed since he was running for the senate "


What you're missing though is that he was running in a heavy Republican state - again pandering though I didn't know this - I only knew of his popeye and someother bullshit speech in Texas which also pissed me off, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

Okay,


So if it wasn't Barack saying this, but your church pastor, what would be the issue then, because I'll tell you, this speech other than being seen on a national stage, is exactly the type of sermons that I grew up hearing from my pastor. I grew up in one of the nastiest projects in New Orleans.

Wow.....


Looks like I'm going to have to register MORE new voters. From the looks in this piece, Obama just lost the black vote.

Nqest


Yes, it's me. It really bothered me this time. Especially him suggesting that we don't believe in ourselves so we couldn't believe he could be president. Such bullshit.



People are afraid to say wait a minute because we thought he was above this so instea they're trying to justify it.



When somebody tells me why he can call us out and not others I'll give it a thougt, but until then, he's fucked up with me.

craig, the dude(Obama) can sure use a shovel. If only he could take that shovel to washington and excavate the useless pieces of shit who've terrorised us with fear, and crippled our economy over the last 8 years. Now, that is the type of "pandering" I would love.


T.

BTW, contrast that Obama quincy photo-op with the Bush/Bush-McCain slugs on some tarmac somewhere, with cake to boot, when New Orleans was submerged under sludge? Yeah.

Every time the right wing busts him on something, he caves like a Bitch.




1)Rev. Wright

2)Trinity Church

3)Wearing Flag Pins

4) Jim Jones, his VP committee guy that he bounced after the info about his mortgage came out. (when he first tried to say it didn't matter)

5) Saying he's going to Iraq after John McCain pressured him for not going.







Please the Rev tossed Obama under the bus for some of the spotlight. Barack defended him without doubt. If the Rev disrespected me like that I'd give him more than words.



The pin? Please again. Didn't he go through the worst political drilling possible and still defended his words during the PA debate?



Jones...bounced himself and for good reason. Why take a political hit for something that doesn't matter. Jones an old Washington player understood that.

Craig,


I wonder why people aren't saying "he's not running for president of Black America" now. It would be different if he would just as strongly, directly and loudly push issues, policies and programs for African-Americans the same way he likes to chastise. It would also help if he did his Cosby routine in a way Cosby didn't -- i.e. without stereotypes and other assorted bs firmly in hand.



And please tell me why Obama act like he despises Farrakhan when Obama has his narrow azz all off in the MMM which was all about the topic of his Father's Day message a decade after Farrakhan made Black manhood/fatherhood central the event and community focus?

Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.


I like to refrain from unworthy comments unless I am in a teaching mood. Today, I am not in a teaching mood, so I won't deal with the irrelevant, diversionary,... red herrings.



BPM

"I'll bet you won't catch Obama at a catholic mass speaking about pedophilia, in Florida talking about abuses to palestinians or what some characterize as terrorism against those people, or at a white suburban high school discussing the moral and physical perils of "friends with benefits" activities. Not only will you not catch is pandering arse doing this but you won't catch him doing this repeatedly each time in front of these audiences, much less once.


Put him in a black church or a rally with predominately black attendees and he parrots the lazy, victimhood negro meme. How many times is he going to call out the black community and only the black community before people stop making excuses for his pandering to the white Americans that won't vote for his behind anyway."



One word: Authenticity. You can disagree but people listen to people they trust on issues close to home. I'm black and catholic and 99% of the time non-catholics don't know how to address the problem of pedophilia in a catholic audience, and if they do many of us won't take it well. Yet, get a priest or other catholic to do this (as we do) and the result is different.



So, who is another AA on the national stage who can talk about these issues? Is it not his responsibility on some level to use his bully pulpit to speak to us? Hell he's from the south side of Chicago, he's seen this shit eat communities alive. All of us who have should be angry (as he appears in the first few moments of the speech).



Should he comment on all our collective social and political ills, yes. But I think he does more than any other politician. Take his inclusion of gay rights into his stump speech, no matter if it is LA or central PA. Take his inclusion of common sense sexual education for all American children.



Does he and will he pander a bit? Damn straight, he's a pol. But the reality is that he hasn't even reached the levels of pandering we're use to on this stage.



Further, what few have responded to is the fact that his message to the AA community has not changed since he was running for the senate and before (keep in mind the majority of AA were for Hillary during the beginning of his pres. run). He's consistent and while some of this speech was obviously politics his consistence on talking about these issues begs some comment on your parts.

Ms. Martin? Is that you?


You once had problems with me being critical of Barack. I'm not surprised that you are critical of him now. I'm just surprised you didn't already know he likes to get his Cosby on every now-and-again. And to be clear, this isn't the first time he gave this Father's Day message with the curious barbershop ("men acting like boys") rhetoric:



The contrast between the emphasis in his speech last year and his speech this year does lend credence to the "pandering" idea though.

Craig, of course. Where was he during Katrina?


And just to be clear I am being sarcastic.

I wonder if anybody thought Barack was pandering to midwestern voters when he picked up a shovel to help sandbagging efforts on the Mississipi or when he put out a call to action for his supporters to donate to the Red Cross and participate in flood relief.

And he could speak truth to the other factors that are destroying the black community (you know the ones that are the fault of black people) but he doesn't have the courage to keep it that real and why should he when no one does aside from the few Time Wise's of the world. Let the little white kids, little jewish kids, little catholic kids hear him to so that they can clean up their parts of the problem. 15 innocent black men on deathrow in Illinois didn't lock themselves up for those crimes but they got there. People are stupid to try to pretend like the problems of the black community are solely owing to the so called "pathological" behavior of black people; this stuff results from the pathological behavior of people other than black people too and if he is that much of a leader, that much of a truthteller, he would tell those people the things they "need" to hear every time he is in front of them. Pandering arses.


BPM

Doyle is there for her Latino contacts, and she's a high profile woman, and they think they can keep an eye on her. Remember, she's from Chicago, her brother is big in Latino politics in Chicago, and they've known Axelrod for years.

Obama is a politician and he is showing his true colors. Playing the Black social conservative card in order to ensure White people that he's hard on Niggas. Real Original. Black Elected officials dance this dance all the time. I have no problem with the actual statements. Its the fact that they were nothing but a pander-fest to shore up his conservative street cred. Obama is getting more played out and tired every day. Negroes will regret that they supported this fool sooner then they think.


Every time the right wing busts him on something, he caves like a Bitch.





1)Rev. Wright

2)Trinity Church

3)Wearing Flag Pins

4) Jim Jones, his VP committee guy that he bounced after the info about his mortgage came out. (when he first tried to say it didn't matter)

5) Saying he's going to Iraq after John McCain pressured him for not going.



Way to be a Leader who stands on his principals. This guy is such a SHAM its not funny. He's another focus group politician that doesn't stand for anything. He makes MANY democrats just want to stay home. Unfortunately, I'm gonna vote for this clown, but I recognize him for the fraud that he is, and the dissapointment he will be to the Black community. But y'all clowns here at jack and jill are still intoxicated by the empty symbolism that a Black president represents. I will not allow myself to be intoxicated, particularly when this is probably the WRONG BLACK PRESIDENT.

I said:
"The bottomline still remains - we need to clean up our own house so that we are in a position to fight the institutional discrimination. Together"



Town Said:

I don't think one has anything to do with the other, really.



My Reply:

Accepting personal reponsibility for the breakdown of the social structure in our black community and subsequently working to rebuild it, strengthens us collectively, as a group. So that instead of a few disparate voices, there is a roar of voices, strong voices, saying to the institution that perpetuates the discrimination - WE ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE. CHANGE IT.



See the relationship, now? We have to try to take matters into our own hands. Change from the bottom up?



Keep talking Barack. Believe it or not, the young black boys are listening and watching you. Yeah, they are!



The evening after you clinched 2118, on 2 of the evening news programs, you recounted a story about how this woman came up to you in San Fran(AIPAC, I think) and told you a story. She said that her son works as a teacher in an inner-city school and how he had detected a change in the young African American boys, you know, how they were paying attention more, becoming more diligent in their studies. And you said, how proud that made you. Yeah, dude, these young black boys are paying attention. These young Hispanic kids are paying attention. (There is a video clip of some of these kids from South Brx discussing Obama in youtube. I think its in Barack's page. Check it out!)



T.

Patti Doyle was hired by Obama as chief of staff to his VP pick. Hmmmm

I'll bet you won't catch Obama at a catholic mass speaking about pedophilia, in Florida talking about abuses to palestinians or what some characterize as terrorism against those people, or at a white suburban high school discussing the moral and physical perils of "friends with benefits" activities. Not only will you not catch is pandering arse doing this but you won't catch him doing this repeatedly each time in front of these audiences, much less once.


Put him in a black church or a rally with predominately black attendees and he parrots the lazy, victimhood negro meme. How many times is he going to call out the black community and only the black community before people stop making excuses for his pandering to the white Americans that won't vote for his behind anyway.





BPM please keep saying this because they're prentending that they don't hear you.



No response - anybody home.



This is the truth - someone please respond to this.

Obama is a political panderer like the others, a politician that Rev. Wright aptly described. This is a fact and so it is.


BPM

"He quickly adjusted that with the Race speech, but I guess he doesn't have to worry about this one - or maybe he does."


Probably not. Democrats have a lock on the black vote and in the newly registered young & dumb votes and he probably worries less.



BPM

"He called out white people for scapegoating brown immigrants as the cause of their economic woes.


I don't recall too many people in these parts cursing him out when he said those things."



Again, he is not giving whole speeches to these groups, rather making comments.



Difference.

2. Obama was pandering...or, more accurately, he was saying something that-given his current stature-he probably has wanted to say for a while. Only difference is that now he has an audience.


::



He's been saying the same thing for a while now. At least since 2004. His audiences were smaller, but he hasn't all of a sudden "found his voice."



The difference between this same speech in 2004 and now?



The media wasn't covering the speech back then and telling us what to think about it.



For many, it appears that Barack is the scapegoat for the media.



But I said I was done with this discussion.



Sigh.

"Are we who support Barack simply waiting for the other shoe to drop. Parsing anything and everything that he says because we don't believe this is really happening?"


Uh no, I always believed this would happened and I also believed that he was a fair man and that he would speak the truth. But it seems he is only able to do this unabashedly with the black community. And, that, I have a serious problem with.



I really wish he hadn't given that speech and made me feel this way.



I feel like I did when he said people of Wright's generation were holding on to anger. He quickly adjusted that with the Race speech, but I guess he doesn't have to worry about this one - or maybe he does.

Shuster gets the political pandering and he had one black and one white guest responding.


What did the guests say?

I get it, rikyrah. You're incapable of criticizing ol' dude because you're a true believer.


I've criticized him on certain things, in particular the AIPAC deal. I understood it, but didn't like it.



Like I said, I'm a true believer in what Obama said, not it's true because Obama said it. I believed it when Mr. Cosby said it. I believed it when others said it.

Ms. Martin, Shuster just asked in a segment whether Obama is using criticism of blacks to appease whites. Shuster gets the political pandering and he had one black and one white guest responding. The political reporters definitely know exactly what he is doing because this is not new strategy but the reporters didn't just discover politics with Obama's run.


BPM

BPM

"Actually, he told Charlie Rose the same thing in a televised interview a few years ago. He didn't use the words bitter and cling but he made the same point.


There was no backlash."



Because he carefully chose his words so as not to offend.

Per Jessica Yelin of CNN "Obama has proved that he is willing to criticize the AA community."


I guess he got the job done.

Let me repeat:


I'll bet you won't catch Obama at a catholic mass speaking about pedophilia, in Florida talking about abuses to palestinians or what some characterize as terrorism against those people, or at a white suburban high school discussing the moral and physical perils of "friends with benefits" activities. Not only will you not catch is pandering arse doing this but you won't catch him doing this repeatedly each time in front of these audiences, much less once.



Put him in a black church or a rally with predominately black attendees and he parrots the lazy, victimhood negro meme. How many times is he going to call out the black community and only the black community before people stop making excuses for his pandering to the white Americans that won't vote for his behind anyway.



BPM

Two things:


1. It's nice to not be the object of everyone's discontent for once.



2. Obama was pandering...or, more accurately, he was saying something that-given his current stature-he probably has wanted to say for a while. Only difference is that now he has an audience.



Moments like this are to be expected. He's allowed a trip or two onto the soapbox.

I hope Obama gets tired of pandering at the expense of blacks soon. It seems to me he takes those black votes for granted more than any democrat before him and that is not very smart of his typically pandering arse.


BPM

Those statements were made in private and got about by accident. They weren't given in a speech to be heard by the nation as the black ones were intended.


::



Actually, he told Charlie Rose the same thing in a televised interview a few years ago. He didn't use the words bitter and cling but he made the same point.



There was no backlash.



Given that Barack has been giving this speech almost in its entirety for years with no fanfare, given that Barack had made the same remarks about small-town voters years ago with no fanfare, it just goes to show that there is always a "perfect storm" that must occur before words are blown out of proportion by those who wish to blow them out of proportion.



Someone used the word racial shame the other day on this topic.



Racial shame.



As though it only applied to Barack for making such comments in an apparent attempt to satisfy white people.



Are we who support Barack simply waiting for the other shoe to drop. Parsing anything and everything that he says because we don't believe this is really happening?



Barack is not perfect. He says so all the time. Sure, he's got the arrogance of a Leo. But he could be much worse.



He could be Bill Clinton.



Barack called out white people for accusing black people of experiencing racism only in their minds.



I'm going to repeat that:



Barack called out white people for accusing black people of experiencing racism only in their minds.



He called out white people for scapegoating brown immigrants as the cause of their economic woes.



I don't recall too many people in these parts cursing him out when he said those things.



But he's taking a beating for telling an audience of black people that we need to raise our standards for parenting.



Humph.



I think I'll leave this discussion alone.

"people know that not EVERY black person/family is engaged in this destructive cycle."


BLACK people know this. Whites do not and so when they report on what Barack Obama said or what Bill Cosby about a particular group of blacks are doing, they report it as BLACKS IN GENERAL are doing it.



"But it is a problem that needs to be addressed. And addressed out loud. Yeah, part of the problem is the "institution" and part of it is personal responsibility. We have control over the latter, and that is what Senator Obama(and Bill Cosby) is saying."





At this point in our country's history, I'm not sure any particular racial group needs to be called out since 50% of marriages are ending in divorce and about 30% of the children in total are being born out of wedlock.



And, I don't think that telling somebody "You need to be a better dad" is going to help solve the problem if those kids in the hood don't know what being a better dad means. Obama's daddy wasn't around, but he did have his granddaddy in the home to show him the way. Pookie on the street might not know what being a dad means beyond throwing the mother of his child a couple of dollars here and there.



I mean, yeah, we can call out Pookie, but who is going to show Pookie how to handle his business?



"The bottomline still remains - we need to clean up our own house so that we are in a position to fight the institutional discrimination. Together"



I don't think one has anything to do with the other, really. Our house has always had dust in the corners, so if we waited until our house was "clean," we'd still be picking cotton and drinking from CULLID ONLY fountains.



The problem is we talk endlessly about cleaning house and tightening up instead of just applying the mop to the floor and scrubbing away. And I don't think we can talk about "bad black fathers" without talking about how many black women are laying down with the "bad black fathers" and continuing to bear children for them.



At any rate, Obama and Cosby are preaching to the choir when they speak about "bad black this or that."

I would like to know when Obama is going to speak about the ills of racism, discrimination, sentencing discrepancies, disproportionate funding between predominately minority schools and white schools,racial profiling, blatant murdering of blacks through lack of appropriate medical care or intentional lowering of the quality regardless of whether the black person is insured....When is his white half going to be honest with white audiences about these things and the share responsibility for the perpetuation by denying these obvious facts in the face of evidence so mounting that international organizations and other countries are publishing reports on the continued slow killing of the black community by racism, institutionalized and otherwise. I wonder why it is that these aren't the subjects of his speeches in front of every non-black audience he performs for.


BPM

Craig,


heh heh, point taken.

:)

Leota2


"And anybody thinking he's pandering to white CONSERVATIVES has been on the planet Mars?"



You make statements like the above and accuse me of attacking.



I haven't addressed anyone personally because this is not personal, but I am entitled to express my opinion regarding my perception of the speech and you can't tell me to get over it or speak to me in condescending tones because I wasn't fatherless or raising children by myself.



It is my right to think that this speech didn't belong in the political arena. It's not a belief, merely an opinion.



Study up and get back to me.

leota2, there really is no need to project. You popped into this thread attacking anyone who didn't take the 100% kneegro point of view. Ms.Martin was the only one who took the bait because I didn't find your post worthy of a response. However, revisionist history is such an annoyance to me. You attacked first and when challenged you jumped to the very victimhood claim that you hypocritically decried. Make up your mind already.


BPM

Ms. Martin,
It seems anyone who does not have the time to spar with you and your err--beliefs, are spouting non-arguments. Hmmm, typical of a closed mind.



Don't be crazy "honey"--I vote too, work with homeless, pregnant teens, teach their children to read and will not get into this further with you. I'm out.



Attack on Ms. Martin-- as is your right sister in these United States . . . . . .

"Eeek..


When I left, there were 11 comments and now, it's 79?"



Blame Canada.



BPM

BPM, you are welcome.

Eeek..


When I left, there were 11 comments and now, it's 79?



Oooh, it's gotten hot in here!



LOL



Off to read another great JJP debate.

Leota2


Your baseless non-argument doesn't move me at all. I don't have to get over it and neither do the many others who don't agree with it.



Dont be foolish honey we are voters.

Town,


Listen, people know that not EVERY black person/family is engaged in this destructive cycle. But it is a problem that needs to be addressed. And addressed out loud. Yeah, part of the problem is the "institution" and part of it is personal responsibility. We have control over the latter, and that is what Senator Obama(and Bill Cosby) is saying. This situation is too dire in our community to fear that other people may be listening. Let 'em listen. The bottomline still remains - we need to clean up our own house so that we are in a position to fight the institutional discrimination. Together.



T.

"BPM you accused me of putting words into you post that you called Obama a sell out. I pointed out how I came to that conclusion. I guess I was wrong. However I have or never called Obama that so you are wrong."


pemala, as i stated I don't recall anyone but you using the word "sellout" in reference to Obama in this thread. I didn't accuse you of anything but I did point I what you typed. Apparently, you confused the word that you typed with my posts and with the above I guess you were doubly wrong. Still, don't know what you mean when you call such people sellouts but in all fairness, I really don't care. However, if I want to call someone a sellout I would do so and I don't need a republican or democrat with a specious argument to take it upon themselves to do so on my behalf. Thanks.



BPM

You know, I listen to these comments and remember I grew up with "don't let the white people know we are just as fucked up as they are."


Get over it! He spoke the truth. He is not a saint. He was raised by a single mother--his father left him. Some of us want to be patted on the head, others don't want to be told a damn thing and others think he's a traitor and wouldn't even be happy if the man sprouted wings out of his ass and flew.



Do you want someone to pander to you? And in the end-- this is life and has a lot to do with the politics of this nation. And anybody thinking he's pandering to white CONSERVATIVES has been on the planet Mars?



And bully to you all who have husbands and fathers who are and were involved in yours and your children's lives.



Life is good.



But if you are pissed 'cause he is not talking to your lot in life and you don't want a lecture-- don't fucking listen! Somebody else a bit more wanting than you may get something from his speech.

Maybe some young brother about to be a father . . .

Ms. Martin
Obama is the only candidate to have discussed how the different sentencing between crack and powder cocaine are devastating the black community. Just last week he spoke on repealing the mandatory sentencing laws and instead focusing on diversion prgrams that will keep our black men out of prison. So he has addressed the fact that the government of late has played a role in the deterioration of the black family. However, he is not going to continue to justify black people using the government as a cop out. A lot of black men are not in the home by choice not by some type of system and our children are suffering for it. The black family has almost completely dissolved in one generation and it's going to take acceptance and work for that to change.

"Those of you who are upset by hie remarks did you have the same reaction when he made his statements about people clinging to guns and religion because they feel the government has failed them? "


Those statements were made in private and got about by accident. They weren't given in a speech to be heard by the nation as the black ones were intended.

BPM you accused me of putting words into you post that you called Obama a sell out. I pointed out how I came to that conclusion. I guess I was wrong. However I have or never called Obama that so you are wrong.

Pamela, the lib'rul here again:


In essence the cling-to-guns-and-religion comment, though inartfully delivered, sought to highlight that those people vote/act against their own economic and social interests by embracing what is familiar to them - their long-held family traditions of gun-ownership and faith - in times of discomfort, you know, when things get tough.



Those who oppose what Senator Obama said yesterday about our community's social problems are in effect reacting the way those people do/did. Yeah, we cling to victimhood when things get rough. The truth makes them uncomfortable. Even for someone as open-minded as myself, I felt uncomfortable hearing it out loud. But it's the truth. We can use this as opportunity, or not, to rebuild our black community.



LOL! Black and white people...not so different after all. Defensive about the truth.



BLACK FAMILIES IT'S TIME TO STAND UP!



T.

The problem with these type of speeches that Obama and Bill Cosby are serving isn't really with the content of the message. The problem is that "other people" are eavesdropping on the message and like the game of "Telephone," the message gets distorted.


So Obama will say "Black dads who aren't handling their business, you need to tighten up," or Bill Cosby will say "Lower class black people who are out there stealing, stop it." We as black people know who and what they are talking about. We know that the vast majority of us aren't acting a fool. The problem is "people who are eavesdropping" think ALL BLACKS are one and the same and are ALL engaging in the fool ass behavior and they report it as such. So the story gets told as "Obama tells black fathers to tighten up" or "Bill Cosby tells blacks to stop stealing."



That's why public personalities like Obama and Cosby need to be careful about what they say about black people in public, not because we don't want white people to see our dirty laundry, but because telling absentee black fathers to "stop acting a fool" is not news to US. Obama has said nothing novel or new or anything that any regular black preacher isn't saying from the pulpit every Sunday morning. They need to be careful because it's news to THEM and THEY are the ones reporting the story.



Black pathology is a national sport. I'm pretty sure other people from other ethnic groups are telling their people to "tighten up" too, but we'll never hear about it because black pathology is the only one that white people care about.

pemala, you referred to Obama as a sellout TWICE. As a matter of fact, I don't recall anyone but you using that term in reference to Obama in this thread. I questioned you and you reiterated your position. Oh and my point was definitely about Obama, Reagan, and Clinton but the fact that you don't recognize the fallacy in your own argument doesn't surprise me at this point.


How are each of these three, Obama, Reagan, and Clinton, sellouts by the definition and claims you were projecting into this thread?



BPM

BPM


I never called Obama a sell out! And this discussion isn't about Reagan or Clinton, it is about Obama.

ms. martin,


You are correct that he was raised in Hawaii(and Indonesia - and Indonesians aren't white) with his white mother and grandparents. So what? He came upon the black community as an adult? Huh?



As he said in his 2004 Charlie Rose interview, he is "a black man raised by a white mother with a healthy dose of self esteem."



Unlike a lot of black people with a white parent, who turned out actually looking black, Senator Obama, appears to be well-adjusted in accepting his african ancestry AND his dark skin-color. He has embraced it, with all the baggage it carries. If you realise he doesn't flinch about his heritage in front of white people or black people. He can empathise with both worlds. This is the gift he will give to his children.



Can you believe what a tough time this little black boy must have had in the 60's without his black father as an example? Kudos to his mother - Thank you Miss Ann Dunham(and to the grandparents). You raised a fine boy! What a gift you've given to the black community...to our country.



T.

Those of you who are upset by hie remarks did you have the same reaction when he made his statements about people clinging to guns and religion because they feel the government has failed them?


I know it's not the same thing but in essence he was making comments about a group of people who would rather not deal with the truth of his statements.

...Was I watching the same speech as some here? Sounded just like my Georgia born and raised father.


As for not blaming racism...what responsible black person doesn't tell their children that? My parents did, so did there's, even as the Klan was burning the cross. Why? Well a someone above hit the nail on the head. Giving into a system of racism is to be defeated.



Did you not hear the portion on Michelle's father? Did you miss the call for governmental action on behalf of families?



Obama has said there things before. And why don't we stop acting like we aren't loosing our males to prison, etc. Yes there are injustices in the system and the words that obama has used about mandatory sentencing laws gives me hope on that front.



The bully pulpit has been used in the past to affect social change, why shouldn't the first viable black candidate use it for our community?



You really think this guy only speaks to white people? Do you remember the race speech? He's trying to bring groups together, a hard, thankless task...



But what do I know, I'm young...

I just wanted to point out broadly that the themes, the issues (both positive and negative) that Sen. Obama raised in this speech are not new to him. This was almost a "best of" speech that combines many themes and issues he's raised in speeches for many years now.


Having read/seen those speeches from years past I can tell you that this speech was not "Obama going into general election mode", but him delivering basically what he's been saying on the topic for a long time now.

speech
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/stateupdates/gG5nFK





AL GORE endorses Obama!!

"No you didn't use the word sell out but I would think pandering to white America on the backs of blacks is a close statement."


Well, it is what it is.

Does anyone have a link to the text of the speech?

Oh ad by the way sorry for addressing you as BMP as opposed to BPM

Okay... so people would rather be mad at Obama for, yes, speaking the truth, than to realize that he was talking to ALL of us.

I've got all fing day to debate this.


Honey101 you like an earlier anon seem to be missing the meat of this discussion.



I don't need a fucking politician pointing my race out as a group that needs a talking to. Stick to the political issues please.



I've raised my boys to be responsible men and was raised by and married to one.



I don't want to hear Obama talk about black people in a speech. PERIOD.

Obama is pandering and scoring political points on the backs of Black America. He is a politician that will say whatever it takes to get those votes. Rev. Wright called that one on the real.


BPM

BMP,


Obama is not the first nor only to pander to white America on the backs of blacks.



No you didn't use the word sell out but I would think pandering to white America on the backs of blacks is a close statement.

Now he has the benefit of a whole bunch of white folks and he needs to remind us after we supported him, that we, as a group, need to do better to better our lives.


::



As I just said, he didn't wait till we supported him before challenging us to be better. He gave a version of this speech three years ago, before he held national office, before he had the "benefit of a whole bunch of white folks", and has been repeating excerpts of it all along the campaign trail for the last 16 months or so.



Politicians tend to piss off their bases when they move from the primary to the general election.



Here we are.

Marc


I don't care what color you are, I don't pander to groups, I see everyone as human unless they give me a reason not to.



I used the word us because I saw the speech as a clear talking to blacks peppered with the usual uniter blacks and whites for effect.

There wouldn't be so many negative perceptions if so many Black people had not spiraled out of control. If we allow any criticism from others to stop us from addressing some serious pathologies then we as a people are lost! Why are so many women commentators the ones soooo offended by having Black men taken to task? Do any of you make excuses for less than stellar behavior? Do you 'love' the boys and 'raise' the girls? That's sexism 101 people. Would you rather hear yet another speech, article, or claim that it is Black women at fault? This is not defend the Black man battle. Where are they? Do you see them defending Black women with such fervor? [CRICKETS]. If it doesn't apply to you or any one you know then why be so offended? This is a problem and it should be addressed. Racism does not cause a man to impregnate a woman and disappear. Yes there are economic factors at play and external obstacles that make things difficult. Does that absolve people from all responsibility? Lack of affordable child-care doesn't stop people from having them. Some of you are reacting emotionally and not thinking critically. This isn't about white people or pandering to conservatives! Obama didn't have his own father around when he grew up though he did have his step-father for a time but mainly his grandfather. Perhaps he is speaking from personal experience. Maybe he would have liked to have had his father around more.


Here's one part that I think everyone can agree with:



“The second thing we need to do as fathers is pass along the value of empathy to our children. Not sympathy, but empathy — the ability to stand in somebody else’s shoes; to look at the world through their eyes.”



So how is that pandering, criticizing or demonizing?

He had 30 MINUTES people! He cannot solve a GENERATIONAL concern.problem in that amount of time. IN FACT, he cannot solve the problem alone! It is everyone's RESPONSIBILITY is some way. Let each of us find our own way to ameliorate this situation!
God Bless Us to do so.

Pemala,


I think you have your republican colored glasses on and anytime a democrat is running with a favorite republican talking point, you probably feel warm and fuzzy and in cynical agreement with the panderer. Point me to where I called Obama a sellout please otherwise let's keep it to what I actually wrote.



BPM

with all my love, ms.martin, i was referring to the religious community he was speaking to and where he did community work for years. he did grow up in other places, but his chicago experience has been very much forming him.


as a matter of fact, i as an "open minded" white man could read things into his speech which were not at all limited to black folks. i could see myself in there. so it was me who he won over (again), not any conservatives.



i think i'll leave it at that.

Craig


Your father wasn't running for political office and giving the talk to you for the benefit of being heard by others.



We know racism is real and success in spite of it is completely understood by the black community and need never be spoken.

Al Gore endorses Obama. Check the campaign website.

Are y'all talking about the same speech I saw? Because I THOUGHT he said, "everybody, especially the black community."


He was [i]not[/i] just talking to "us".



ps, sorry about the anonymity, long-time lurker

In essence, he gave the same speech on MLK day, the same speech to a rally in Dallas, the same speech to several groups in SC, the same Fing speech practically each time he is in front of black people. I guess it makes sense, black people are the source and perpetuators of all problems in America so whenever there is a black audience, he should speak to that. Makes sense to you.


BPM

It is the fact that he threw in you can't blame it on racism that gave him away. Straight fucking pandering.


::



My father told me the same thing on a regular basis and he wasn't pandering to anybody. He was motivating me to work even harder, dig even deeper, even in the face of racism. He simply didn't want me to give racism more power than it ought to have in blighting my dreams.



Barack didn't say anything yesterday that he hasn't been saying for years and yet now he's beind derided.



I guess Barack's speech was more daring than I originally gave it credit for.

BMP, I suppose I have my rose colored glasses on or maybe I am way too optimistic but I don't believe Obama is selling out blacks to pander to whites. But I can see how from a cynical perspective it may look that way.

I'm not an African-American, but I am a father, and insofar as Senator Obama's speech touched on fatherhood in general, I have to say it resonated with me...the themes of responsibility and setting a good example for one's kids and such.


Just my 2 cents. And really, for those who are complaining about the timing, he gave a speech about fatherhood on father's day. Makes sense to me.

Marc


Get real. His roots are in Hawaii with a white family. He came upon the black community as an adult - he was already formed.



Like he said in his speech, while he was raised by a single mother, he had the benefit of his grandparents, one who was ashamed that he was black as a child at the beach and another who thought a black man would rob her at a bus stop. Now he has the benefit of a whole bunch of white folks and he needs to remind us after we supported him, that we, as a group, need to do better to better our lives.

"Or maybe we have never had a prospective President that cares enough to say anything."


New to politics? Never listened to any other speeches before Obama. Start easy and research Bill Clinton's speeches or Ronald Reagan's. Obama is not the first nor only to pander to white America on the backs of blacks. As a republican, you should be quite accustomed to hearing exactly that.



BPM

Pamela,


I'm a died-in-the-wool...umm...liberal. Yep. Unapologetic. I am not in the habit of agreeing with you...umm...conservatives. But in this instance I agree with you.



Was what Obama said true? Heck, yeah! Was what Obama said, out real loud, to be heard on youtube forever and ever, supremely uncomfortbale? Heck, yeah! But, like Obama, I'm in the business of saying what people need to hear and not what they want to hear!



And even if it was not Obama's intent to call us out, I'm certainly glad he did. Black people, look at this as a challenge. Just sayin'.



T.

only the brave dare open cans of worms.


and did he really pull the black community down, or wasn't he rather telling them "yes we can"? was he asking too much?



and who else should do what he did? a white guy?



now he should talk to appalachia the same way...



but have you forgotten where his roots are? so he cannot anymore talk to his community because now that he's running for prez his words gain importance and some could get itchy? that, in my opinion, would have been an artificial and political-at-its-worst approach.

A prospective president who cares my ass.


If he cared, he would have broached this subject in an entirely different manner!



He gave that speech for a white audience.



Like I said yesterday, there are blacks who wish to hear about issues such as the economy, healthcare and issues affecting the country as a whole.

I'll bet you won't catch him at a catholic mass speaking about pedophilia, in Florida talking about abuses to palestinians or what some characterize as terrorism against those people, or at a white suburban high school discussing the moral and physical perils of "friends with benefits" activities.


Put him in a black church or a rally with predominately black attendees and he parrots the lazy, victimhood negro meme. How many times is he going to call out the black community and only the black community before people stop making excuses for his pandering to the white Americans that won't vote for his behind anyway.



BPM

It doesn't feel right for a prospective President to single out any one community for this kind of "personal" treatment.


Or maybe we have never had a prospective President that cares enough to say anything.

Obama shouldn't have gone there at all. It's opening up a can of worms ...why not go to the white community and talk about divorce? There are social leaders who talk about these issues. It doesn't feel right for a prospective President to single out any one community for this kind of "personal" treatment.

I'm confused, but then again I am a black conservative so I am a bit slow (I'm kidding, about the slow part). Obama speaks to a predominately black church on fathers day about an issue that does affect a lot of black people and it is wrong? It may be uncomfortable to hear but I don't think he said anything in his speech that wasn't true.


As far as airing dirty laundry, the issues of our community aren't these dirty little secrets. If anything they are blown out of proportion by people outside of the community and if the misconseptions are ever going to be corrected they need to be discussed openly.



I don't think it was Obama's intent to call the black community out. He was just giving what he felt was an honest speech for the audience, the day and his experience.

"some might not have realized it, but this speech was "ask not what your country can do for you" ten times over. and he did not even mention that precedent. and yes, he said this to his black community, but no, this was not a play for conservatives.


it took guts to say these words, and many commments here confirm it. but this is how a leader has to talk. not to appease each and every group and person, but to take those to task who need it. not to offer cheap solutions, but to ask everybody to cooperate. not to put himself on top of everybody, but to lift everybody up with him.



not to demand blind submission to the leader, but to insist on the responsibility of every person so they can be leaders, each of them.



obama could have stayed silent. he did not need to speak on this occasion. he did not need to make this any more than a standard holiday speech and be a nice guy. but obama did not seek the easy way out. this is quite a unique man."



BS. One might try to make that argument after the first time but the fact is that he is saying the same things other whites say without pointing out other factors. He has given this speak to black churches and black rallies that we can stop pretending like he is not scoring political points on the backs of black Americans.



I can hardly wait for his speeches to the good folk in appalachia where I presume he will tell white Americans what "needs" to be said too.



BPM

wasn't he speaking to his own community church?


my, it's tough when you take your time but anyways some always will go back to stereotypes.

My 2 cents:


This was the appropriate time to address this issue, because all the black men are now paying attention. Yep, they are now watching Senator Obama and listening to him, if for no other reason than that someone who looks like them is telling them like it is. And guess what, this messenger is authentic(say, unlike Bill Cosby?)in that he, himself, had an absentee dad. He resolved to break that cycle of black fathers behaving like sperm donors. Senator Obama "manned up", so to speak. He is offering black men a blueprint for there own lives. African-American men need to take this challenge.



Yes, in many ways, the "institution" is still stacked against the black male, but what are they/we going to do? Huh? Just throw our arms up in the air and do nothing? Try nothing? Just continue this cycle of broken and dysfunctional families in our communities?



I'm sad that so many people believe that he was pandering to whoever. Oh Puhleeze. As a black woman, I certainly do not see it that way at all. The people in here who are offering this argument are total enablers of the self-defeating behavior that we partake in. The same sort of people who, perhaps, at the beginning of Obama's campaign showed little faith in his candidacy until 98%-white-Iowa sent out the message(people of Iowa it's all love!) that he is viable. Yeah, we had to get permission. Sad!



We have learnt to be the consummate victims. Not unfounded, but guess what y'all? There comes a time when we must realise that we have to stand up and face what is happening in our black community. And, it starts with the basic family structure. How mothers and fathers treat each other in front of their kids. Educate them about sex stuff. Teach them how to have repect for their bodies. And for gods sake, pay a little attention in school.



Yeah, I know, people outside of our community like to think we are not that smart but they are wrong. We may have to work twice as hard to disprove those impressions. But we must try. Now we have a chance, our black brother and sister(Barack and Michelle) is now under the spotlight and is proving that argument dead wrong. Let's take this opportunity black people. Don't fight it.



I will join the chorus, Senator Obama:

BLACK MEN, MAN THE FUCK UP! PLEASE! STOP MAKING EXCUSES! DO SOMETHING! TRY ANYTHING! RESPECT YOUR WOMEN! TAKE CARE OF YOUR FAMILIES!



T.

ps. This speech, though it was given from the pulpit of a black church, was universal in it message. If you either read or listened to it in its entirety, you would see.



pps. Another brother is entertaining us today. Go Tiger Woods! Good Luck!

BPM


My anger is not just about dirty laundry. Though airing does give other license to speak on it. It is all the factors you mentioned and more that shoud render this subject closed to a few comments and know follow-up.



It is the fact that he threw in you can't blame it on racism that gave him away. Straight fucking pandering.

Obama should know about absent black fathers. Isn't he always bragging about being raised by a single mother with the help of his grandparents? This speech given at this particular church on this particular day is pure politics. Barack Obama wasn't talking to me or my daddy. He was talking to white America and feeding into the sterotype.

some might not have realized it, but this speech was "ask not what your country can do for you" ten times over. and he did not even mention that precedent. and yes, he said this to his black community, but no, this was not a play for conservatives.


it took guts to say these words, and many commments here confirm it. but this is how a leader has to talk. not to appease each and every group and person, but to take those to task who need it. not to offer cheap solutions, but to ask everybody to cooperate. not to put himself on top of everybody, but to lift everybody up with him.



not to demand blind submission to the leader, but to insist on the responsibility of every person so they can be leaders, each of them.



obama could have stayed silent. he did not need to speak on this occasion. he did not need to make this any more than a standard holiday speech and be a nice guy. but obama did not seek the easy way out. this is quite a unique man.

Well, I think we all knew Obama is human.


If there is only criticism offered to the AA community, Barack may dampen turnout.



If this speech is evidence of his social conservative leanings, then I would say to O that many kids are saved by not knowing their fathers. You're not deficient if your father isn't around.



The speech made me feel down. Don't blacks deserve to be uplifted sometimes.

I apologize in advance that I will not proofread or edit this post, so please excuse any grammatical or spelling errors.


I actually agree with you, MS.MARTIN but for other reasons than dirty laundry. I agree with you because he conveniently ignores the real systemic root causes of many ills in the AA community. A black kid with a joint gets jail and a felony record so that he can never get financial aid for college or a legitimate job while a white kid with cocaine gets to take a driving class.



An educated AA with a graduate degree and gainfully employed can go to a doctor recommended by a white colleague with symptoms that the white colleague was given a battery of tests for and not have one test ordered even with suggestions of the tests the colleague mentioned. It would take the AA another 3 years of trying doctor after to get someone who finally treated indiscriminately but by then it was too late because the AA died of cancer a year later but the white colleague's was caught early enough to live a productive life in remission.



A black person with degrees from the best schools could be visiting family in the south and get pulled over on a country road by a sheriff because said person has vanity plates and a university decal in the window that doesn't comport with what the sheriff expects a black person to achieve. When questioned about the reason for the pull over, considering said person wasn't speeding or breaking any other laws, the sheriff informs the black person in this 21st century that he could take the driver's career or life without consequence, so the driver should be thankful that the sheriff is in a good mood. The driver looking into the sheriff's eyes did not doubt his words and drove away broken and awakened to the realization that regardless of how educated, accomplished, or successful you are in the end you are still black and any person in power on any given Sunday can take everything away and get away with it. It happens every day.



Then you have the shiftless people who are selling T-shirts and starting websites since 2007 to take advantage of Obama's run for president suddenly becoming pristine enough to sit in judgment of all other black people without any more accomplishment than a new entre into a political hustle in comparison to others. I can hardly wait for the hustle documentaries to show up after the election, bought and paid for by people like me who donated frequent flier miles to volunteers who took the free plane tickets and their video cameras just to get some footage for the next step in hustledom (instead of actually knocking on as many doors as possible I've seen some that did 25 doors and called it a weekend because it really is about the hustle) but I don't consider them any better than the kid who gets a record & is sent to juvy for stealing a package of bologna from the 7-11 because he was hungry and had a little sibling at home who was hungry too. I guess the former persons consider themselves better than the latter but I think the former may have too high an opinion of themselves.



I would like to know when he is going to speak about the ills of racism, discrimination, sentencing discrepancies, disproportionate funding between predominately minority schools and white schools,racial profiling, blatant murdering of blacks through lack of appropriate medical care or intentional lowering of the quality regardless of whether the black person is insured....When is his white half going to be honest with white audiences about these things and the share responsibility for the perpetuation by denying these obvious facts in the face of evidence so mounting that international organizations and other countries are publishing reports on the continued slow killing of the black community by racism, institutionalized and otherwise.



BPM

no alarm being sounded by our community, these teenaged girls are more than often pointing to GROWN MEN. Grown men who have preyed upon these young girls. What would make these GIRLS think that it's ok to be with these GROWN MEN? The hunger inside of them that they're trying to fill due to a MISSING FATHER.


This made me think are black men convicted of being pediphiles at the same rate as white men? My image of a pediphile is a middle age to old creepy white guy. I wonder if black men who prey on young black females are largely ignored as if the girl was asking for it anyway.



The R.Kelly verdict makes me ill and I will never by one of his albums or play one of his songs again.

Once again blacks are being thrown in the trash by a Democrat.


I understand know about the "cockiness" he's been criticize for.



He even suggested that because blacks didn't believe in themselves they didn't believe he could be president. How fucking arrogant.

Ms. Martin


I agree that is what he's doing now. I'd only add that I believe he's doing that to elect himself and other Democrats, which I see as a good thing.



But I'm not sure that Obama's inital public service had the same "getting elected focus", but even if it did . . . the goals of improving a community and being elected aren't always mutally exclusive.



I don't see Obama's comments as much more then a black man, going in front of a black church and saying "let's look at ourselves" and even if he didn't say everything we may have wished he said, he said something which to me is an excellent thing.



Of course the issues of poverty and fatherhood are complex as hell and a speech doesn't exist that could cover it all but I appreciate that it was said.

khal02


"He has called out the Cubans in Florida about travel restrictions and and the Jewish community about Israel's role in the mess in the middle East. "



These are specific governments that he spoke about, not a race of people - it is clearly different.

Adam


He was out organizing voter regisitration drives so we could vote him into office.



He wasn't out organizing a group of young black men teaching them about responsibility and fatherhood.

You can clap to his comments all you want.


But this speech was aimed at white conservatives.



Ms. Martin is right. This speech (like those sad little encomiums Juan Williams always writes) was him doing the dog whistle thing for white conservatives.



"See, their lagging behind is their fault! Stop making excuses!"



And so on.



I get it, rikyrah. You're incapable of criticizing ol' dude because you're a true believer. But as a black man who grew up in the inner city with no father, I'd kind of like someone in a prominent public role to not be patted on the back for trafficking in stereotypes about our supposed laziness.



You should point out that single parent households are on the rise across the board, not just with black folks. That black (and brown) folks have higher rates of fatherlessness isn't surprising --- they're more likely to be poor.



And this is what people don't understand on this issue. They get the causality completely backward: people aren't poor because they're families are haphazardly formed and maintained --- their families are haphazardly formed and maintained because they're poor.



the personal reponsibility argument rules the day because it's a simple one, and draws clear moral lines.



Were it that simple in the real world, and not in the heads of bourgie self-congratulators.

ms. martin, i understand what you're saying, but i just wanted to add that my comments above had everything to do with fathers and families in general and not black fathers and black families in particular.


i would hate to think that obama made this speech because he thinks it's what white america wants to hear. i can tell you that certain white americans of pat buchanan leanings will be thrilled with this speech.

Obama's caught in a catch 22 where if he says nothing about the valid concerns many in our community have, then he's a sellout.


But if does and then doesn't provide enough balance in his comments, then he's hit another wall.



I like his speech. I respect the fact that he said it. Are there plenty of good black fathers out there? Sure. But that's what they are supposed to be, so no real cause for celebration.



And Ms. Martin, to say that O should go out into the community . . come on now, the man was a community organizer for pete's sake. He has been there and done that.



No, I don't think a speech from Obama will automatically change things, but it does set the tone. It does continue to advance the idea that certain behaviors are unacceptable. That is a good thing.

khal02


You are the last person I'm going to try to explain this to.



It's not that I don't want to hear it. It's not a fact about my life. I was raised by my father and my children by my husband. In fact, my son loves his father so much, when we separated he chose to stay with him though he loves me very much.



It feeds the NEGATIVE PERCEPTIONS of us as a people and that's all it does - the people he's talking about are not listening to him and talk is cheap any fucking way. If he is really concerned, he should go out into the community and reach one and teach one.



It ignores the large number of blacks who live their lives for the good.



and finally, if a white man was saying this shit you people would be tearing this board up in anger.



WHY GIVE HIM A PASS?

there is definitely a problem with parents in this world. the first totally irresponsible parent i knew of was the father of my sister's three kids. after they divorced, he never even saw the kids again until they were adults, and his child support payments of $150 a month just vanished after a year.


my stepdaughter's two boys have different fathers. one is in prison, the other died in a motorcycle wreck with the cops chasing him. the one in prison never once showed an interest in his son until he got locked up and bored. aaron's 10 now. he needs a daddy.



the longest lasting relationship they had with a man ended because that man, much as the boys loved him, simply refused to work. and he did ~ he just wouldn't do it. the refusal to participate in that mandatory activity ~ supporting oneself ~ was stunning. i gave him a job at a good wage with remarkable flexibility and he just went home one day and never came back. i got a friend to give him a job where he could ultimately end up making $28 an hour. he went home after two days. never worked again.



when hannah filed for survivor benefits on her younger boy after his dad died, the small social security benefit ~ small because he'd barely worked in his 26 years ~ was divided by 7. seven kids that man had, that no working, no child supporting man. seven. that's insanity.



it isn't just men. my sister's youngest adopted daughter's mother had nothing to do with her kids, nothing.



i like this speech and one of the things i like the most about it is that he calls people on some of the standard parenting crap that goes on now in households everywhere.



the addiction to television is a tragedy and it truly impacts the relationship between parent and child and it isolates people within the home. i'm afraid it's part of what's behind the skyrocketing diagnosis of ADD in kids. too much stimulus, too young, too constant.



we've had a pretty active propaganda campaign from this government to get us to support the war, hate muslims, etc.



i'd think that an active, everywhere you turn campaign to encourage strong parents, proper parenting behavior, all of that, would have some effect. make a turn-off-the-TV day, a read-a-book-to-your-kid day. education young people who havent' any idea how to be a parent as to exactly what it really takes for a child to thrive.



our kids can't make it without a proper foundation. there's a lot of research which shows that a kid's got to get what he/she needs before the age of 5 or it's really too late, that the intellect and the capacity for success in education is pretty much established by then. a solid foundation, security, enriched environment, attention, love in action, not just words.



in this country, kids ~ kids of 20, 25, 30 ~ are having babies for a lot of reasons other than building a family. my stepdaughter wanted love, she got two beautiful little boys, zero help from their fathers, and an enormous amount of work, like nothing she ever imagined. i wish she were a good mom. she's not. she says she loves them a lot, but her actions . . . not so much. it's a tragedy, a heartbreak.



i appreciate obama talking about fatherhood. it's important.

I feel that the speech is warranted. Like its been said, there are more than a few black men not handling their business. Not that other races don't have the same problem, but the perception is that we own the lion's share of inadequate fathers.
I read something on Pat Buchanan's blog sometime ago; someone commented that if Obama wins the presidency, that conservatives and white America as a whole can feel free to call black folks to the carpet. If we finally got a real "black president" under our belt, we can stop blaming 'the man' for our misfortune.

Now, I know that's a load of donkey kong, and so do you. But as this election has proven so far, perception is reality. And just as he's had to in other instances, Obama's looking to reassure white voters that he will not infact 'give black folks a pass' on our less than perfect behavior.

Now, I know you and I and many other represent the thousands upon thousands of AAs that either (A) come from strong 2 parent households, or (B) came from a strong one parent household, and didnt raise any ruckus. But, unfortunately, even tho we exist, the country likes to pretend we don't. And lets face it, in some instances, our black family unit does need some healing.

Bottom line, I thing Obama is again bridging a gap with this speech. He's telling white folks that he doesn't condone the less than stellar behavior of some black folks, he's showing and telling the black folks that have not to do better, as he did, and he telling us that do have, be a strong example! Lift someone else up! Isn't that why we love him for POTUS anyway??

Ms. Martin
He has called out the Cubans in Florida about travel restrictions and and the Jewish community about Israel's role in the mess in the middle East. I think most people didn't give Bill Cosby a pass because he was such an imperfect messenger with all the harassment suits and the fact that while he was talking about fatherhood his own children are a mess. I don't know if father's day was the right time for Obama to make this speech but he spoke a truth that some in the black community do not want to hear.

rikyrah


Yes, we are back to the dirty laundry argument.



I'm not so sure it's his dirty laundry though - just ours.



Why are you giving him a pass that you don't give other folks who have spoken out regarding the same issues?

are we back to the whole ' dirty laundry' argument?


I know I disagree with folks on this issue; I guess we'll agree to disagree.

"But, the whole defensiveness, as if he's lying; as if he's making it up."


No, he's not lying and I'm not defensive, I don't like the public chastizing of the community.



He never speaks about other groups' behavior in an entire speech and IMO his reason for doing it to us is suspect and it's changing my view of him.



I am not the only person who feels this way - check out the comments on a lot of sites - including his.



I think it is irresponsible of him to feed perceptions of us to those who use it as an excuse to ignore the good in many of us and loathe us.



I've heard you reel against people who think less of us as a group. He his helping this with these types of speeches. They really are not necessary.

no, ms. martin, it's not going to cut the teen pregnancy rate.


but, the preying on our young girls by older men IS a problem. These young girls are vulnerable to these older men, because of the hunger that they have due to that they have missing fathers.



I didn't have the issues with Obama's speech that others had. I know that he wasn't talking about my father or any man in my immediate family - because they took care of business.



But, the whole defensiveness, as if he's lying; as if he's making it up.



Maybe if we had 10,000 Black men in jail instead of 1,000,000, whose most common traits are: Fatherlessness and Illiteracy, then maybe I could see something wrong with what he said.



The flip side of that, on the female side, is our young women being preyed upon by older men, because of what they are missing.



Like I said before, I'm conservative (with a small c) on this issue.

So Obama's speech is going to cut the teen pregnancy rate?

Listening to the radio right now, and the Black Station is discussing the R.Kelly verdict. In the next hour, they're going to be discussing Obama's speech. Talk about irony. If this CHILD had the right kind of Black man FATHERING HER, she would have NOT let R. Kelly piss on her.


I always had a problem with the statement that that girl had 'parents'. She had an egg donor and a sperm donor- parasites both. PARENTS would be IN JAIL for what they did to R.Kelly after finding out what he had done to their child.



R.Kelly is the most famous of a situation that has proliferated during my adult lifetime. When I was growing up, if you saw a teenaged mother, when pointing the finger to the father, you found yourself pointing to a teenaged boy - someone of her peer group.



No longer. With no alarm being sounded by our community, these teenaged girls are more than often pointing to GROWN MEN. Grown men who have preyed upon these young girls. What would make these GIRLS think that it's ok to be with these GROWN MEN? The hunger inside of them that they're trying to fill due to a MISSING FATHER.

I'd rather hear about stories of hope like this:


Teen mother reared in crisis and poverty becomes a doctor





By S.A. REID

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution



Published on: 06/15/08

i agreed with the overall spirit of the speech, but i think i would have used different language to get at some of the external forces that lead so many young Black men down the path of no return. no we shouldn't be beholden to "excuses", but then again there are some very real issues that must first be dealt with before Black families can get back up and running (namely poverty, violence and addiction which he cites). maybe this was his "move to the center" but i thought it was pretty much right on.

I'm trying to forget about this speech.

Anon 8:04-


Michelle Obama is not strange. She is like every single black person in America!! I wish that people could stop talking such bullshit all the time. I refuse to read the article because I do not need to read why Michelle feels the way she does because and I almost all AA's feel the same way.

If possible, read both of these articles together. They explore a time in Michelle Obama’s life “when her views on race and American culture began to coalesce . . . .”
Learning to be Michelle Obama: At Princeton, she came to terms with being a black achiever in a white world

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/06/15/learning_to_be_michelle_obama/





In April, Michelle Obama’s white roommate and her mother gave their perspective in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution in April:

Georgian recalls rooming with Michelle Obama

http://www.ajc.com/search/content/news/stories/2008/04/12/roommate_0413.html

Where is the Beef? Here is the beef for those who maintained that the Obama campaign has not offered any details of its tax policy. It is fair, balance and informative! His plan clearly distinguishes itself from the old notion of "tax-and-spend." Take a look, learn and share!


The Numbers: Obama vs McCain on Taxes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNyNv_UfFUo