Jack & Jill Politics

Also wanted to respond to nyc/caribbean ragazza's observations. I agree and disagree.


I do agree that in some islands, the racial issue has more complexity to it. In Martinique for instance, I found the racial lines and roles were a lot more blurred - the races mixed a lot more and there seemed to be less hang ups about black, brown or white. Though of course, I know enough to know they are still there. But it's less...sharp than in other places.



Trinidad is another example partly because the racial/racist dynamic is different there- brown vs. black and they are such a rainbow nation it makes no sense.



Jamaica ...being half-Jamaican and having lived there to do uni, I would NEVER list Jamaicans as people who are not colour-conscious. Jamaicans are so colour-conscious it's painful.



I think it may be wrong to necessarily judge Caribbean racial attitudes by your friends and family since they sound more middle class and bourgeois and are not necessarily representative of normal attitudes.



Not hitting at you - it's just like how I have tons of Indo-Trinidadian friends who are not 'racial' in the least but I know they do not neccesarily represent the norm.

Just my two cents:


To anon 7:52 - yes it is a stupid, racist concept but it has also created enormous good in that blacks in the Western hemisphere are more welcoming than probably any other group of people. Not that we don't have our issues of colourism and shadism but by comparison, we are much more willing to accept someone as being 'one of us' than other people are - often where others would reject.

So if you're light-skinned and wavy-haired like Rihanna or Alicia Keys? Sure, you're black. Welcome.

If you're dark-skinned and curly-haired like me? You're black and you're welcome.

If you're part Syrian, part Portuguese, Part Chinese and part black with freckles and a big bamsy like my Trini best friend - you too can identify as black and you're welcome. Our concept of black is very wide and diverse. I happen to like that. Gives me lots of folks to claim. :)



It's like Nas said...:p "Y'all my n***as too.

I love that now legendary article by Tego. He's a black nationalist to the core. He goes on and on about now black people are discriminated against in Latin American..then he mentions in passing,,,,"as I told my wife, whose is white........."


Negro please.

Anon 4:40:


Ha!Exactly. I experienced that too and thats the reason for most of their shock! Ha!



___________________________________



There is discrimination and issues in much of Latin America and its visible and I have experienced it first hand. There are BLACK latinos who face this. Many, many, many in Latin America have African roots!! More slaves went to those parts than here in the U.S. There very culture has extremely visible African inspiration. The constant denial of these colorism and race issues are killing me. I grew up in the BX. To get some of this out of the mouths of my Latino friends is like pulling teeth. I'm suprise that many still dont know about this.



The Clinton campaign did not make this up! They exploited it for their own political purposes.



Here is an article that I continue to hand out to people when we discuss this topic:



Its from the New York Post. Its with Tego Calderon who is a reggaeton artist. He speaks about race...colorism and Latin America with a focus on Puerto Rico, his homeland from the perspective of a black Latino:



Black Pride

HRC promises Puerto Ricans full voting rights... yeah right.




http://www.typepad.com/t/trackback/433071/29441828

Let's put it this way:


When Obama was winning Iowa and inspiring crowds, he was "mixed race." Many whites couldn't wait to say he was part white and ask why he claimed himself as black when he was half white.



When Rev. Wright came out, those same people were all too glad to call him "black."



Just sayin'.

I hate the word mulatto, it is just a slave term used to divide and conquer us during slavery and still today.

Kenya I agree being African, part African is a beautiful thing. It's sad that thanks to our pop culture and the images we choose to promote all over the world, the number of women in Africa using skin lightening creams is skyrocketing. So are skin cancer rates which were non-existent only a few years ago.


Regarding my previous post, all I am saying is my parents and myself are very dark. My cousins who have a french mom are not. We have the same last name and nobody cares.



I'm going by what I have personally witnessed in my family. Other family members have married Dutch people. Some of their kids married folks who are as dark as me or white folks and everything in between.



Not saying it's paradise. Just saying each island has it's own issues. The Jamaicans, Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans and Trinidadians I know are not color conscious. Their families seem to be more concerned with class. If you look like Halle but "don't have a pot to piss in" you are not going to trump the brown girl with a pot. I think in the States you would. Or maybe I'm just cynical after living in L.A.



I just moved to Rome from Los Angeles where I lived for 10 years. I feel it was the most color struck place I have ever lived or visited in my life. I cannot even get into some of the crazy comments I rec'd from brothers about my natural hair...in the 21st century!



It wasn't until I went to college that I faced the whole the lighter you, are the more play you will get thing. This was in the late 80s. Very eye opening.



On the other hand my brother-in-law is jewish and haitian. His father is light and so are many people in that family. Yes in Haiti it does seem like most of the people with money are light, just like in DC. His family did not have an issue with him marrying my sister who is chocolate like me.



I did say on the larger islands it seems to be a bigger issue. Haiti is a much larger island than St. Martin and Anguilla where the majority of my people are from. The rest are in Aruba, Curacao, Bonaire, and Guadeloupe.



I forgot to say earlier I agree 100% race is not an obstacle it's racism. So true.

I agree with them, he is not 100% black, and, nor is he in that hideous term "mulatto." He is half black and half white. To say he is black discounts his Mother, who was white. This absurd notion that you are black with a single drop of black blood is a stupid racist American idea.

kenya w, thank you for your responses.


I'm reminded of that historic day back in 2002 when Halle Berry became the first Black woman to win the Academy Award for Best Actress and there were many who said she wasn't really Black and that is why she was able to win.



Hardly any of these social critics addressed the merits of Halle's performance, except to say that Angela Bassett should've won for What's Love Got to Do With It and since she didn't it proves that Halle's win had only to do with her complexion and heritage.



This discussion reminds me of that discussion and it's unfortunate.

evita and carribean ragazza, i have always wondered about the lumping of spanish speaking voters from different parts of the world together. but they have been acting, and the clinton campaign is part of that they, as if puerto rico is going to be a huge win. anyhow, it would really help if the narrative was overturned and i hope you are right about obama's chances. as for hillary's racebaiting, i don't understand how anybody could ignore, deny, or otherwise not see. but i have had heard my wife's jewish aunt age seventy decry michelle obama's not proud comment as offensive. not seeing that the parrellel for her would be polish pride. hey how's your pride in poland aunt judy? or the gay men who have adopted twins in my daughter's class giving us a hard time about the obama sticker on our car. i am sure they would be comfortable with among all the hillary supporters in w.va. or ky. so you see i have given up trusting minorities or sub groups to see their communal interest in an enlightened politician.

nyc/caribbean ragazza,
That must be one special Island that you lived on, because those views are contrary to every Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Jamaicans and Haitians that I have ever met. I mean that I have EVER met in my entire life; as well as everything that I have EVER read. You do know that there are hundreds of books about this subject right?

Now it may be generational, but I do believe that is still exists.

From all of my conversations and learning, I have heard that a lot of people in the Caribbean are very concerned with skin tone and European features. I have been told that the older generation does not care for their children marrying someone darker and definitely not someone that is black. Because it is considered marrying down.

You were raised in paradise.

You mean to tell me that people in Africa, North America, Central America, and South America are the only ones that view darker skin as a negative or are color struck? It just skipped all of the former slaves and the societies that they had to integrate in the Caribbean? Must be nice.

But, we are getting beside the point. Let's just hope that SBO has a victory. People don't have to vote for anyone at all. Let's just hope that this election shows people that do have unwarranted prejudices, that being part African is not a handicap or disadvantage. It is a beautiful thing.

My family is from the caribbean. Does the media not understand that just because Mexicans and Puerto Ricans speak spanish doesn't mean the two groups will vote the same way?


I can only speak for my family and friends but no one the islands that they are from care about this whole bi-racial or light skinned/dark skin thing. I have many relatives who are mixed and they are treated not better or worse. they are not special because they are light or have "good hair". It's more important that your family is not jacked up than what your skin tone is. I do know on some of the much bigger islands that might not be the case but let's not put our American obsessions on Puerto Rico. The island's history is very diverse and most of the Puerto Ricans I know define themselves and black and latino.

Phia,


We're doing some maintenance. We'll be back soon.

Hillary royally pissed off Puerto Ricans with her "hardworking Americans, white Americans comment"-- that got a lot of airing throughout media on the island. There was simmering anger at Hillary anyway for other reasons, and her arrogant race-baiting prior to West Virginia and Kentucky got a lot of attention in Puerto Rico. People are furious at her about it.


Also, just as an aside-- one of my old friends in New York says that a group has sprouted up, to launch a campaign to recall Hillary Clinton from the New York Senate. This apparently began well before Hillary all but dog-whistled her supporters to pull a Sirhan Sirhan on Obama on Friday, so it's no doubt intensified. Anyone with the inside scoop on this? Would love to help join the effort!

what is up with toosense.net? I've been a long-time subscriber and now it's a BLOCKED site?!!

Shrugs her shoulder,
We tell them that they can accomplish great things with a good education and hard work; especially if they dedicate their lives to serving others.

Don't let someone else’s definition of black, diminish what this means to black Americans and blacks around the world.

We are not in PR, and America he is black. He was born black and he will definitely die black. Many blacks that fought for our human and civil rights were mulatto or had a grandparent that was white. But in THIS country they had no rights. Mulattos in THIS country had to drink out of the same fountains as all the other black folks.

Let us not start giving away black people because some whites who pretend to forget or are just ignorant of our history come along and starts saying, "they belong with us" or "he is actually one of us".

Besides, SBO has more pure African blood in him than most of us do.

In no way will I attempt to be the spokesperson for Puerto Rican people. I will however offer the insight for myself and my close circle of family and friends.




Where we do not identify as Black, we do not identify as white either- not matter how limiting the census is. The media has done a disservice to the image of Black people, however the experience we have had with white people in the US has amplified the connections we have with Black people in the US. Again, this is not to say that phenotypically some of us are not Black. But in terms of an American Black identity- its different. We don't have the historical civil war narrative.



That said, many Puerto Ricans have worked with, lived with, and merged families with African Americans. The first wave of Puerto Ricans came through NYC and hey we lived the BX ling enough to be founders of hip hop! Generations older will buy into media hype of Black Americans, generations younger see ourselves and brothers/sisters in the struggle. Many of the people on the island have lived in NYC at least part of their life too.



It would surprise me if the primary was close. I'll say this again, there is NO ONE in my family on Clinton's side. I shipped several Obama signs to family in PR. I had several conversations with family elders of other families... don't dismiss Obama cuz we're Latino.



The media has often made the mistake of saying Latino but meaning Mexican. Puerto Ricans are not Mexican- we haven't experienced the segregation they have.



He may get votes because he is NOT white.

dNA always makes good points (even when I don't agree with him).


I was wondering when this conversation was going to begin.



dNA stated that: As wonderful as it is that PR can look at Obama and see themselves, it reminds you they wouldn't feel the same way about someone who was darker or didn't have a white parent.



Why limit this to PR. I don't think it's a stretch to think a majority of white people who voted for Obama feel this way too. What does that say about America racism?



There have black people qualified to run before but they were too black (literally and figuratively) for mainstream consumption. Obama doesn't have that problem. Apparently the right kind of Black American is not only ivy-league educated but mixed.



What message does that send to plain black kids who Obama is supposed to inspire?

"Number one, race isn't an "obstacle," racism is an obstacle. The problem isn't that Obama is black, the problem is that some folks have a problem with the fact that Obama is black."


That was excellent.

LOL @ squarepeg.

any polls in puerto rico? will it be a total surprise?

"People darker than Obama can identify as white in Puerto Rico."


Is that somehow supposed to be special?

Well, bring back the paper sack test, for crying out loud.


I don't think I'm going to last until the general election - everyone's wearing me out.

As wonderful as it is that PR can look at Obama and see themselves, it reminds you they wouldn't feel the same way about someone who was darker or didn't have a white parent.


::



I'm not so sure that's true.



In Puerto Rico, mulatto means mixed-race, not necessarily black and white.



People darker than Obama can identify as white in Puerto Rico.



It's all about who your grandmother is.



I'm not saying there's no bias based upon skin color, but darker men than Obama could still receive a whole slew of votes on the island.