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	<title>Comments on: Williams: Middle Class Blacks Are A Different Race</title>
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	<link>http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2007/11/williams-middle-class-blacks-are-a-different-race/</link>
	<description>A black bourgeoisie perspective on U.S. politics</description>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2007/11/williams-middle-class-blacks-are-a-different-race/comment-page-1/#comment-1681</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 00:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s45368.gridserver.com/?p=614#comment-1681</guid>
		<description>Nice site, I&#039;ll add you to my blogroll...&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I don&#039;t think it is that far off to suggest that blacks are divided on values by class. There has always been a values divide between poor and middle class--it just seems to be wider now. Money, or lack of it changes values. Two worlds? I think that&#039;s an exaggeration but not too much so. But this divide is a reality for ALL races--not just blacks. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Where Williams makes a complete leap and overreach is in his conclusion, &quot;This comes down to black Americans who believe in family, education and personal responsibility vs. those who point at &quot;the man&quot; or the &quot;system&quot; for the added weight on black Americans.&quot;  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;There is just no way the data from the report can support this statement. This is simply William&#039;s opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice site, I&#8217;ll add you to my blogroll&#8230;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it is that far off to suggest that blacks are divided on values by class. There has always been a values divide between poor and middle class&#8211;it just seems to be wider now. Money, or lack of it changes values. Two worlds? I think that&#8217;s an exaggeration but not too much so. But this divide is a reality for ALL races&#8211;not just blacks. </p>
<p>Where Williams makes a complete leap and overreach is in his conclusion, &#8220;This comes down to black Americans who believe in family, education and personal responsibility vs. those who point at &#8220;the man&#8221; or the &#8220;system&#8221; for the added weight on black Americans.&#8221;  </p>
<p>There is just no way the data from the report can support this statement. This is simply William&#8217;s opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Francis L. Holland Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2007/11/williams-middle-class-blacks-are-a-different-race/comment-page-1/#comment-1679</link>
		<dc:creator>Francis L. Holland Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 21:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s45368.gridserver.com/?p=614#comment-1679</guid>
		<description>Once we acknowledge that Blacks are not a separate &quot;race&quot; genetically at all, but that we are actually a separate &quot;social group&quot; that is defined primarily by its skin color, it makes perfect sense that there would be separate sub-groups and sub-cultures within our social group.  Why wouldn&#039;t there be?  Because &quot;all Blacks are alike?&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The use of the word &quot;race&quot; at all leads to all sorts of absurd assumptions.  As much as we may insist that we are beyond believing that we are part of a &quot;race&quot; defined by inherent genetic differences, yet the discussions we have are defined precisely by the belief that we DO have inherent genetically-based differences from whites, rather than sociological and cultural differences based on our historical and present role and position in American society.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Garbage in, garbage out.  Any discussion that starts from the belief in the existence of &quot;race&quot; is bound to become hopelessly stuck  in disagreements that can never be resolved, because &quot;race&quot; itself does not exist.  What does exist in America is denigration, subjugation and exploitation based on skin color, but not all Blacks are subjugated and exploited in the precisely the same ways.  Some of us suffer color-based traffic profiling while driving old Honda Civics while others of us suffer color-based traffic profiling while driving new Rolls Royces.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Anyway, this article from Juan Williams convinces me of two things:  1)  We have many more Black spokespeople in the mainstream media than ever before, and 2)  We are much freer and more empowered than ever before to tell them that we think they&#039;re full of crap.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once we acknowledge that Blacks are not a separate &#8220;race&#8221; genetically at all, but that we are actually a separate &#8220;social group&#8221; that is defined primarily by its skin color, it makes perfect sense that there would be separate sub-groups and sub-cultures within our social group.  Why wouldn&#8217;t there be?  Because &#8220;all Blacks are alike?&#8221;</p>
<p>The use of the word &#8220;race&#8221; at all leads to all sorts of absurd assumptions.  As much as we may insist that we are beyond believing that we are part of a &#8220;race&#8221; defined by inherent genetic differences, yet the discussions we have are defined precisely by the belief that we DO have inherent genetically-based differences from whites, rather than sociological and cultural differences based on our historical and present role and position in American society.  </p>
<p>Garbage in, garbage out.  Any discussion that starts from the belief in the existence of &#8220;race&#8221; is bound to become hopelessly stuck  in disagreements that can never be resolved, because &#8220;race&#8221; itself does not exist.  What does exist in America is denigration, subjugation and exploitation based on skin color, but not all Blacks are subjugated and exploited in the precisely the same ways.  Some of us suffer color-based traffic profiling while driving old Honda Civics while others of us suffer color-based traffic profiling while driving new Rolls Royces.</p>
<p>Anyway, this article from Juan Williams convinces me of two things:  1)  We have many more Black spokespeople in the mainstream media than ever before, and 2)  We are much freer and more empowered than ever before to tell them that we think they&#8217;re full of crap.</p>
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		<title>By: Acanthus</title>
		<link>http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2007/11/williams-middle-class-blacks-are-a-different-race/comment-page-1/#comment-1676</link>
		<dc:creator>Acanthus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 22:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s45368.gridserver.com/?p=614#comment-1676</guid>
		<description>:Race is not scientific characteristic. It&#039;s a social construct. We are in this group, black, based on criteria that we agree create a common identity (but that doesn&#039;t make it so)&quot;.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I have never, ever seen anyone who has mede this assertion apply it to whites. They are quick to say &quot;there are actually no black people&quot;, but won&#039;t ever say &quot;there are actually no white people&quot;. This is basically the same kind of distancing Juan Williams is doing, and it&#039;s just as cowardly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>:Race is not scientific characteristic. It&#8217;s a social construct. We are in this group, black, based on criteria that we agree create a common identity (but that doesn&#8217;t make it so)&#8221;.</p>
<p>I have never, ever seen anyone who has mede this assertion apply it to whites. They are quick to say &#8220;there are actually no black people&#8221;, but won&#8217;t ever say &#8220;there are actually no white people&#8221;. This is basically the same kind of distancing Juan Williams is doing, and it&#8217;s just as cowardly.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2007/11/williams-middle-class-blacks-are-a-different-race/comment-page-1/#comment-1673</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s45368.gridserver.com/?p=614#comment-1673</guid>
		<description>One more thing, I don&#039;t think class takes us very far when looking at the life chances of Black folks.  For example, the research and evidence on sub-prime home lending, which shows that blacks, regardless of class, are more likely to be given sub-prime rates and that on Black mortality from cancer, even when accounting for education, income, and insurance coverage are evidence that class doesn&#039;t necessarily yield a better &quot;Black experience.&quot;  To investigate that more see the work of Melvin Oliver&#039;s Black Wealth, White Wealth,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more thing, I don&#8217;t think class takes us very far when looking at the life chances of Black folks.  For example, the research and evidence on sub-prime home lending, which shows that blacks, regardless of class, are more likely to be given sub-prime rates and that on Black mortality from cancer, even when accounting for education, income, and insurance coverage are evidence that class doesn&#8217;t necessarily yield a better &#8220;Black experience.&#8221;  To investigate that more see the work of Melvin Oliver&#8217;s Black Wealth, White Wealth,</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2007/11/williams-middle-class-blacks-are-a-different-race/comment-page-1/#comment-1672</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s45368.gridserver.com/?p=614#comment-1672</guid>
		<description>I think the problem with Juan Williams&#039; writing is that he doesn&#039;t actually closely investigate the Pew data, which is publicly available via the Pew website. He picks some &quot;interesting&quot; things from the Executive Summary, but doesn&#039;t truly read the study.  Moreover, as a social scientist, I have some real issues with item wording etc, which I think force respondents to make choices from a set of arbitrary alternatives set by researchers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the problem with Juan Williams&#8217; writing is that he doesn&#8217;t actually closely investigate the Pew data, which is publicly available via the Pew website. He picks some &#8220;interesting&#8221; things from the Executive Summary, but doesn&#8217;t truly read the study.  Moreover, as a social scientist, I have some real issues with item wording etc, which I think force respondents to make choices from a set of arbitrary alternatives set by researchers.</p>
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		<title>By: Emmy</title>
		<link>http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2007/11/williams-middle-class-blacks-are-a-different-race/comment-page-1/#comment-1669</link>
		<dc:creator>Emmy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 04:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s45368.gridserver.com/?p=614#comment-1669</guid>
		<description>Race is not scientific characteristic.  It&#039;s a social construct.  We are in this group, black, based on criteria that we agree create a common identity (but that doesn&#039;t make it so).&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Being brown doesn&#039;t mean that we have a common experience. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I&#039;m not certain of the best practices in terms of categorizing folk but surely socioeconomic status is a better determinant of ones experience in housing, education, employment, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Race is not scientific characteristic.  It&#8217;s a social construct.  We are in this group, black, based on criteria that we agree create a common identity (but that doesn&#8217;t make it so).</p>
<p>Being brown doesn&#8217;t mean that we have a common experience. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not certain of the best practices in terms of categorizing folk but surely socioeconomic status is a better determinant of ones experience in housing, education, employment, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Julia</title>
		<link>http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2007/11/williams-middle-class-blacks-are-a-different-race/comment-page-1/#comment-1668</link>
		<dc:creator>Julia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s45368.gridserver.com/?p=614#comment-1668</guid>
		<description>Well, it was forbearing of him not to bring up the paper bag thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, it was forbearing of him not to bring up the paper bag thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Ochyming</title>
		<link>http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2007/11/williams-middle-class-blacks-are-a-different-race/comment-page-1/#comment-1667</link>
		<dc:creator>Ochyming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s45368.gridserver.com/?p=614#comment-1667</guid>
		<description>To me he is just proving that he is more humane than the rest.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I see no difference in his mind set and that of those who blames Europeans for everything.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;They exist, live to prove their own humanity in prejudice of others.&lt;br/&gt;I compare this with the racism between Africans in Africa.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It should be dealt with seriously, because as any iceberg, what lurks under the surface is quite BIG.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;What is important I do not see discussed...&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;          Pointing actual roads to be paved, instead of the old coward game of blaming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To me he is just proving that he is more humane than the rest.</p>
<p>I see no difference in his mind set and that of those who blames Europeans for everything.</p>
<p>They exist, live to prove their own humanity in prejudice of others.<br />I compare this with the racism between Africans in Africa.</p>
<p>It should be dealt with seriously, because as any iceberg, what lurks under the surface is quite BIG.</p>
<p>What is important I do not see discussed&#8230;</p>
<p>          Pointing actual roads to be paved, instead of the old coward game of blaming.</p>
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		<title>By: drydock</title>
		<link>http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2007/11/williams-middle-class-blacks-are-a-different-race/comment-page-1/#comment-1666</link>
		<dc:creator>drydock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s45368.gridserver.com/?p=614#comment-1666</guid>
		<description>Yeah, in America there&#039;s no working class let alone black working class.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, in America there&#8217;s no working class let alone black working class.</p>
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		<title>By: dnA</title>
		<link>http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2007/11/williams-middle-class-blacks-are-a-different-race/comment-page-1/#comment-1664</link>
		<dc:creator>dnA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 04:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s45368.gridserver.com/?p=614#comment-1664</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t even know rikyrah. I&#039;ll call Juan Williams. He seems to know alot about who is black and who isn&#039;t. I can&#039;t believe I used to admire him when I was a kid.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Remember this next time he complains that black kids make fun of each other for &quot;acting white&quot; when they study. After an essay like this one, isn&#039;t it fair to say he agrees with the sentiment that a studious black kid is at the very least, not acting &quot;black&quot;? Where do people think kids get these essentialized notions of race and intelligence to being with?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t even know rikyrah. I&#8217;ll call Juan Williams. He seems to know alot about who is black and who isn&#8217;t. I can&#8217;t believe I used to admire him when I was a kid.</p>
<p>Remember this next time he complains that black kids make fun of each other for &#8220;acting white&#8221; when they study. After an essay like this one, isn&#8217;t it fair to say he agrees with the sentiment that a studious black kid is at the very least, not acting &#8220;black&#8221;? Where do people think kids get these essentialized notions of race and intelligence to being with?</p>
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		<title>By: Acanthus</title>
		<link>http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2007/11/williams-middle-class-blacks-are-a-different-race/comment-page-1/#comment-1663</link>
		<dc:creator>Acanthus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 02:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s45368.gridserver.com/?p=614#comment-1663</guid>
		<description>Unbelievable. I saw that poll, and was puzzled by that question at first. It soon became clear to me that they were really talking about culture and ethnicity. Why can&#039;t Williams see that? If you think in terms or culture and ethnicity, you can argurably say we are no longer one &quot;race&quot; (keeping in mind that &quot;race&quot; is the wrong word to use) when you take into account the number of black people of differing ethnicities who are now established in the U.S.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Actually, on one level, I&#039;m glad he said something like this. It&#039;ll hasten the complete loss of his credibility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unbelievable. I saw that poll, and was puzzled by that question at first. It soon became clear to me that they were really talking about culture and ethnicity. Why can&#8217;t Williams see that? If you think in terms or culture and ethnicity, you can argurably say we are no longer one &#8220;race&#8221; (keeping in mind that &#8220;race&#8221; is the wrong word to use) when you take into account the number of black people of differing ethnicities who are now established in the U.S.</p>
<p>Actually, on one level, I&#8217;m glad he said something like this. It&#8217;ll hasten the complete loss of his credibility.</p>
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		<title>By: rikyrah</title>
		<link>http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2007/11/williams-middle-class-blacks-are-a-different-race/comment-page-1/#comment-1662</link>
		<dc:creator>rikyrah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 01:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s45368.gridserver.com/?p=614#comment-1662</guid>
		<description>dnA,&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I&#039;m getting the feeling that you want to revoke Williams&#039; &#039;Black Card&#039;. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;LOL &lt;br/&gt;&lt;i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;This comes down to black Americans who believe in family, education and personal responsibility vs. those who point at &quot;the man&quot; or the &quot;system&quot; for the added weight on black Americans.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Where does this leave a Negro like me, who believes strongly in family, education &amp; personal responsibility, but totally understands the influenece of &#039; The Man&#039; and &#039;The System&#039; on Black folk. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Where am I, dnA? &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Am I a Good Negro or Bad One?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dnA,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m getting the feeling that you want to revoke Williams&#8217; &#8216;Black Card&#8217;. </p>
<p>LOL <br /><i><br />This comes down to black Americans who believe in family, education and personal responsibility vs. those who point at &#8220;the man&#8221; or the &#8220;system&#8221; for the added weight on black Americans.</i></p>
<p>Where does this leave a Negro like me, who believes strongly in family, education &#038; personal responsibility, but totally understands the influenece of &#8216; The Man&#8217; and &#8216;The System&#8217; on Black folk. </p>
<p>Where am I, dnA? </p>
<p>Am I a Good Negro or Bad One?</p>
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		<title>By: Seattle Slim</title>
		<link>http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2007/11/williams-middle-class-blacks-are-a-different-race/comment-page-1/#comment-1661</link>
		<dc:creator>Seattle Slim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s45368.gridserver.com/?p=614#comment-1661</guid>
		<description>Of course it is idiotic at best to think that we are becoming two races because of experience and values.  That is true.  I do agree with him in that there is starting to be another divide withing the African-American community, maybe even the international black community as a whole.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;While he is foolish to say we will be a different race, I predict that if there isn&#039;t some sort of cohesion there will be dissention within the ranks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course it is idiotic at best to think that we are becoming two races because of experience and values.  That is true.  I do agree with him in that there is starting to be another divide withing the African-American community, maybe even the international black community as a whole.</p>
<p>While he is foolish to say we will be a different race, I predict that if there isn&#8217;t some sort of cohesion there will be dissention within the ranks.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2007/11/williams-middle-class-blacks-are-a-different-race/comment-page-1/#comment-1660</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s45368.gridserver.com/?p=614#comment-1660</guid>
		<description>Wow, the GOP&#039;s grand plan to break up the black vote</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, the GOP&#8217;s grand plan to break up the black vote</p>
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		<title>By: Jomo</title>
		<link>http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2007/11/williams-middle-class-blacks-are-a-different-race/comment-page-1/#comment-1659</link>
		<dc:creator>Jomo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://s45368.gridserver.com/?p=614#comment-1659</guid>
		<description>Juan Williams gets the &quot;gas face.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Juan Williams gets the &#8220;gas face.&#8221;</p>
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